thank you the next item of business is a debate in motion 8870 in the name of Shirley Ann Somerville on Charities regulation and administration Scotland built at stage one I would ask those members who would wish to speak in the debate to please prior to the quest to speak buttons and I call on Shirley and Summerville cabinet secretary to speak to and to move the motion around nine minutes please thank you Brazilian officer and I moved the motion in my name I'm pleased to open this debate on the general principles of the Charities regulation Administration Scotland bill this bill was delayed due to the pandemic so I'm glad we are now able to progress it here today let me start by thanking the social justice and Social Security committee for their thoughtful consideration off the bill and their stage one report which expresses support for the Bill's general principles I also want to thank all the stakeholders who have taken the time to express their views through oral Unwritten evidence both to committee and through discussions with my officials I'm also grateful to Oscar the Scottish charity regulator for its valuable contributions on this bill as I'm sure everyone in this chamber will agree Charities are a crucial part of our society and of our communities and it is therefore imperative that we have the right regulatory framework in place to ensure we can continue to support our charity sector and maintain public trust in how Charities operate the covid-19 pandemic brought into sharp relief the importance of Charities right across Scotland and the vital Services they provide on the ground Charities are widely supported by the public trust in them and what they deliver is high and we want to keep it that way and the Charities trustee investment Scotland act 2005 is now over 17 years old and the charity sector has changed significantly in that time that's why we're aiming to strengthen and improve charity regulation through updating the 2005 act I'm pleased that Charities have voiced their support for this bill and its principles which will increase transparency of Charities and proportionately extend Oscar's powers it is encouraging to see that the committee supports all Provisions within the bill particularly information about charity trustees and charity accounts both of which will increase transparency and will in turn strengthen and enhance public trust and confidence in the Scottish charity sector the stage one report sets out positive conclusions and constructive recommendations that my officials can take forward turning to the specifics of the Bell the overall aim is to strengthen and update the existing framework rather than to revisit the fundamental principles of the 2005 act the bill is built around proposals put forward by Oscar based on its operational experience since the 2005 act came into Force further to this following engagement with Oscar and the Law Society of Scotland the record of Charity mergers at section 12 is proposed which will improve access to Legacy income for many Charities and a list of minor or technical amendments were also added the Scottish government consulted in 2019 and 2021 on the proposals put forward by Oscar with over 400 written responses in total both consultations showed strong support for the proposals and that stakeholders are Keen to see changes brought forward the bill covers a range of different Provisions designed to enhance the existing framework each of the provisions falls under one of the three primary aims the first is increasing transparency and accountability in Charities by improving public access to information about the Charities operations the bill requires Oscar to publish the accounts for all Charities and to include the name of Charity trustees on the Scottish charity register Oscar will be able to maintain a schedule of Charity trustee details for its own internal use and provide a publicly searchable record of the small number of individuals who have been removed from holding trustee office by the courts the stage one report recognizes the balance the bill provides between the overarching need for transparency and the safeguarding of individual Safety and Security the second aim for is providing stronger powers for Oscar including the power to issue Positive Directions to help Charities address regulatory issues Gordon McDonald I thank the cabinet secretary for giving way and for the record I'm supportive of the general principles that I spell we all want to see good regulation improved openness accountability and transparency for our Charities we also need to ensure that those Charities are well served by the regulator Oscar so can I ask the cabinet secretary who regulates the regulator and if a charity feels they have not been treated fairly or been communicated well with who can he go to for adjudication during the process of interacting with Oscar camera secretary the member is Point clearly um there is the compliance procedure within Oscar and of course if the individual mortality remains dissatisfied there can obviously be further moves to discourage Public Services Ombudsman but if there is a concern about um the role of the regulator in this I think this is one of the aspects that can um if people desire for that to be looked at in the way the reform work that will come forward and on charity law if I can move on presiding officer to that second Dame about stronger powers for Oscar the bill gives Oscar a new power to issue Positive Directions to charities in addition to the existing powers to issue preventative directions it also allows Oscar to conduct inquiries where necessary into former Charities and their trustees Oscar's powers and Duties are enhanced by enabling Oscar to remove a charity from the register where it fails to provide accounts and fails to respond to Communications there's also a new provision which requires Oscar to refuse to enter an applicant onto the register where it considered it would not be appropriate to regulate the applicant because it has no connection or only a negligible connection to Scotland Oscar is also empowered to appoint interim trustees to a charity in certain circumstances for example where the charity has no trustees or the existing trustees cannot be found furthermore the bill makes some adjustments to Oscar's processes around gathering information in connection with in connection with inquiries in order to make them more streamlined and efficient I'm grateful to the committee for its support of these new powers and for the questions it has posed around the practicalities of the appointment of interim trustees I understand the committee's desire for more information on how Oscar envisaged that new power will work especially in the light of difficulties faced by many Charities on the Recruitment and the retention of Trustees themselves now we understand the Oscar intends to write directly to the committee on this point and on other areas requested in the stage one report including plans for communicating the changes with Charities and providing guidance now the third team is to bring Scottish charity law up to date with some key aspects of Charity regulation in England Wales and Northern Ireland enhancing public trust in Charities and further protecting charitable assets this will be achieved through updates to the criteria applying to the disqualification of Charity trustees and the extension of disqualification to individuals employed and Charities who exercise specified Senior Management functions I'm glad that the committee agreed that it is sensible for Scotland to align the trustee disqualification criteria with the rest of the UK to enhance the sector's ability to carry out due diligence I also appreciate the committee raising the important issue of trustee and Senior Management diversity within the charity sector and I share the committee's you that those with lived experience can and should be bring valuable and often unique contributions to charity boards the bill enhances protection for charitable assets through the creation of a record of Charity mergers and the new provision redirecting legacies where a charity has merged the stage one report asks the Scottish government to consider whether other types of guests to Charities can be included in the record of Charity mergers and the government is assessing this possibility and one aspect of this which I don't think we've necessarily had Clarity on at stage one of this bill was with regards to Lifetime gifts when a charity does go through a merger and just wondered what work government were doing ahead of stage two to prevent to provide that Clarity cabinet secretary my um remarks I made before the intervention and I'm very keen to to look at this I'm very happy to work with members of the committee and indeed other members across the chamber to see what more can be done in advance of stage two and happy to say that forward with Mr begs should he wish to do so this belt makes practical improvements and updates existing charity regulation in the role of Oscar and that's why we've consulted pre-pandemic and why we're taking this forward and I know that stakeholders want to see long-term changes to charity regulation I want to be clear that this is not the purpose of this bill this bill is intended to sustain the effective and supported regulation of Charities during these challenging times however as I've mentioned in my response to Gordon McDonald I do believe there is a need for a broader review of the future of Charity regulation which is why I'm pleased to recommit to a wider review following the passage of this bill the stage one report helpfully sets out stakeholders views on areas for consideration as part of that wider review and we will ensure that we will engage with the charity sector further on the scope of that review and how it could be shaped presiding officer this is a technical bill it's very focused bill that provides Improvement for the charity sector by strengthening and enhancing the existing regulatory framework I hope therefore that the parliament will agree and I hereby move the motion in my name thank you government secretary I now call on Colette Stevenson to speak on behalf of the social justice and Social Security committee a generous eight minutes students thank you proceeding officer I'm delighted to be speaking on behalf of the social justice and Social Security committee as its new convener before I get into the substance of the committee's scrutiny work I would first like to thank the outgoing convener and Deputy convener Natalie Dawn and Emma Roddick as well as the wider committee for their diligent scrutiny of the Charities regulation and administration Scotland bill I know although the bill is small in size it belies the technical complexities the committee had to Grapple with this bill aims to update and strengthen the 2005 Charities and trustee investment Scotland act and provides an opportunity to improve the regulation of Charities as well as to reinforce public confidence in the sector as a whole as Charles told us Charities are in a privileged position with regard to handling donations from the public those are things in relation to which public accountability is important the committee saw a breadth of views including from the third sector designated religious Charities as well as from law accountancy and other professionals the committee is extremely grateful to all of those who are engaged with us one of the objectives of the bill is to bring Scottish charity legislation up to date with key aspects of regulation in England Wales and Northern Ireland technical changes the bill brings about will help regulation in Scotland keep Pace with that of other jurisdictions however evidence gathered demonstrates a desire to go further for a wider review of Charity law and we understand that the Scottish government has provided such a commitment and we welcome this it has been almost two decades since the 2005 legislation was enacted and the use of digital systems means the world and the way we work has changed significantly Witnesses made clear it's essential that any review is independent and crucially carried out in consultation with a wide range of people and organizations we Advocate strongly that the Scottish government engages the third sector directly and early and makes specific efforts to reach those small to medium organizations part of its evidence to charity law association explained one of the joys of the Scottish charity system is that we have sometimes been slightly ahead of the game but now we're slightly behind the curve we hope that wider review helps to put Scotland back at the Forefront before turning to the detail of the provisions I want to emphasize that although the committee supports the general principles we did receive a clear message from the charitable sector that more information is required the Scottish government and Oscar must work together to ensure the sector is provided with this reassurance and support one example of an area in need of clarification relates to the disqualification of potential trustees it quickly became clear there was significant confusion surrounding undischarged bankruptcy as a disqualification Criterion several witnesses were specifically concerned that some individuals with relevant lived experience may be barred from becoming a trustee even more so because the cost of living crisis could increase instances of bankruptcy although Oster advised personal bankruptcy is an existing Criterion for disqualified disqualification and police since the 2005 act we felt the regulator needed to clarify the position to the sector its concerning to the committee that it hasn't take the introduction of this bill for the lack of awareness regarding this regulation to come to light no new legislation is coming through Oster must ensure that all existing and new regulations governing Charities are well understood by those that work in them full transparency and accountability in the sector can only be achieved if individuals working in it know what is expected of them while those potentially subject to disqualification can apply for a waiver uncertainty around how the waiver process would work was also raised a particular concern was default disqualification it was thought that as well as the waiver process being potentially off-putting to prospective trustees it could disproportionately affect those from marginalized backgrounds Charities deal with public money raised in good faith it is imperative that this element of the legislation remains robust however organizations and potential trustees must have the information and support that they need to ensure the waiver process is straightforward and individuals are given the opportunity to be judged fairly Scottish government and Oscars should ensure the process is well understood and that any Associated Administration is straightforward yes John Mason yeah thank the member very much for giving away I wasn't on the committee but I was interested to read the report and I think this issue was raised with the cabinet secretary and one of her answers was that in most of these bars are time limited I just wondered if the committee was satisfied with that answer Colette Stevenson um thank the member for that intervention and that's something that we could bring forward um at stage two and I believe is at a 12-month period at the moment thank you so Charities deal with public money raised in good faith and again sort of kind of go back to the appointment sorry of interim trustees by Oscar also prompted questions so while the bill provides a regulator with the power to do this evidence highlighted challenges and trustees recruitment we consider it may not be easy for Oscar to find and appoint individuals willing to act on a temporary basis our report seeks further information on how Oscar expects to be able to recruit interim trustees and how often it anticipates this power being used we'd like to know for example if there would be a scotland-wide panel of Trustees to draw from the final provision I was I wish to discuss today relates to Oscar's ability to issue positive direction to Charities following inquiries where concerns have been raised well this was broadly supported Earth evidence showed the sector needs greater clarity about how this world work in actual practice for example there was a spectrum of opinion regarding exemptions from positive directions for designated religious charities the committee recommends the Scottish government covers this issue as part of the wider review it was clear through our scrutiny Charities need more information about what will be expected of them particularly on potential administrative and financial burdens it is vitally important that any uncertainty is addressed this is why we asked the Scottish government to set out its plans for commencement of the bill and of bans of Amy's stage 2 consideration to provide assurances the expected time frame will allow enough time for communication with organizations to help them prepare the committee has pleased the Scottish government has since confirmed that the expected time frame in writing and we thank the cabinet secretary for this we also welcome the Scottish government's recognition of the importance of communication with the sector and conclusion Poseidon officer in order for Charities to continue to add value we must ensure they are probably properly regulated and supported so while the committee is pleased that a wider review is forthcoming we recognize the need for the Charities regulation and administration Scotland Bill to update important regulatory elements of existing legislation now the committee therefore supports the general principles of this bill and commends them to the Scottish Parliament thank you thank you Miss Stevenson I now call on Jerry Balfour a generous of minutes thank you Deputy General and can I uh welcome this bill and confirm that uh on this side of the chamber will be voting for it later today I think as the cabinet secretary mentioned this is a fairly non-controversial Bill and uh that's probably just as well because since stage one we've had a new cabinet secretary we've had a new convener new Deputy can winner and lost five members of the committee so they've been controversial having noticed what would have happened however it is a welcome Bill and um I do hope that it will bring some clarity in regard to how charity law is developing and like coverage I would like to thank those who gave evidence to the committee um at stage one to referred sector to other bodies interested in this and like the cabinet secretary we all acknowledge I'm sure foreign sector of Charities within Scotland within our local communities many of us see Charities providing care and help to the most vulnerable and many of us are aware of the larger Charities that work across Scotland as someone who worked briefly in the third sector and is someone who has been a trustee of a number of Charities and I know sometimes the difficulty it is to be able to recruit people into these positions to make sure that their age good governance and I do hope that this bill or acting due course will help in regard to that and I suppose what is most disappointing if one can be critiqued slightly is not what's in the bill but what's not in the bill um and that was a clear evidence that came forward from particularly the third sector um on the evidence that we heard this was an opportunity perhaps to have a fairly wide range in review of Charity law rather than a technical bill that we had before us today but that has not happened and I think there is Disappointment in regards to that now I do understand that the minister has um shared again today that there will be further consultation once which becomes an act but I wonder if she could just preach on record I see closures that there will be no Parliament so any change within charity law would happen in the next session to the member just to clarify there is no intention for the further um bill so a piece of primary legislation isn't possible but of course there are a number perhaps a pieces of secondary legislation that could be changed and that's something happy to look at in the scope of The Wider review clarification and as our new convener has mentioned and I do welcome back to the rule and I think one of the things that came out again in the evidence was perhaps the clarification that the third sector needs and actually how charity law works there did seem to be quite a lot of misunderstanding or concern which was there which um needs to be clarified and I think there are some of how this will work in practice also needs to be clarified and I welcome um the lecture that we have already received from the cabinet secretary and I look forward to receiving the correspondence from Oscar and I would just point out gently both to Oscar and to the Scottish government that we are working on quite a tight time scale in regards to stage two amendments I understand that movie will happen early next month which means we will have to below this month and we're already nearly halfway through this month so I do hope that we will receive early correspondence um from these bodies so that the appropriate discussions and amendments can be brought forward which will seek to improve the bill and I wonder in the time I just left with with me um if I can just pick up on three areas off the bill but I think we maybe need to have a look at in a way but more more depth but first is in regards to sections four and seven um off the bill and mileage disqualification from being a trustee again this was an area that this used to be a with a lack of understanding of what it actually means in practice and I do hope that Oscar will seek to clarify that as soon as possible I think also interestingly the Law Society um or Scotland pickup that how the regulations that will follow on from any act will be vitally important of actually how this works in practice and again I'm sure this government will but I would seek a reassure in fact it will be a full consultation on these regulations with the third sector before we are brought forward to Parliament to approve the other area that perhaps we just need to look at is allowing protected trustees which some individuals use and when they are facing a bankruptcy I understand that if you declare bankrupt that would only last for one calendar year but for protected trustees I think there's a longer period and that we may see um some people being disbarred from being a trustee for that longer period of time and one of the things that became very clear again in the evidence is that we do need a wider group of individuals to become trustees and we need to see a wider ranges from other parts of society that perhaps haven't done this in the past and disqualification may put people off in regard to that the second area just to probe a little Lounge is around Section 8 of the bill a matches in regard to interim trustees and I suppose the question is where will we come from and certainly with Charities I speak to here within lovian and are desperate for people to become trustees so again if this and again maybe some clarification numbers will this be a panel of individuals at the Scottish government set up or Oscar set up they can call upon um with pleasure John Mason yeah thank you for giving away I just wonder if he thinks that actually maybe for some people they couldn't commit to a long term with that charity but they might be willing to do you know a few months to help out Jeremy Belfry well I I think that's an interesting concept and I would quite like to see it tested to see if that is right but it certainly may well be something that we can look at um and I think also in regard to um how these individuals relate I think there was slight confusion and perhaps as my ignorance rather than anyone else is in regards to what happens if a charity has an interim trustee appointed but we don't want my reading of the bill is that there's no right of appeal in regard to that and the only way forward would be for those trustees who maybe haven't been functioning but are still around to take a judicial review now that would seems to be very expensive and take up a lot of resources and time and I'm just wondering uh whether the government could write to the committee to try to clarify why there is no right of appeal if you don't like the interim trustees that have been appointed I think this will be done on a fairly real occasion but when it does it's probably because there's been some kind of conflict or something has gone wrong the finally then very briefly dependencies to pick up a point and maybe with my colleague Miles Briggs in regard to Lifetime gifts and Legacies section 12 of the bill and again reading the law to say to Scotland's submission that if there's a lifetime gift if I put a a lifetime gift in my will and that charity merges with another charity it would be for me who is who is rich in my will to have my Will altered and in fact didn't happen when money wouldn't go to the new merge charity that seems to put quite a lot of owners on people to keep up to date of what's happening in charity law and I do think I welcome the cabinet secretary's remarks for that she's going to look at this but I do think we just need to get this a bit cleaner and a bit tighter in regard to stage two and stage three with those comments I I closed by saying thank you you're welcome and again the um bill before us and I look forward to improving it over stage two and stage three thank you thank you Mr Balfour and I now call on polokin a generous six minutes please Mr King hey thank you very much Deputy presiding officer and I'm pleased to be leading this debate on behalf of the Scottish labor party and at the outset I refer members to my register of Interest as I can which have a chair of Trustees of Nielsen war memorial Association I'd like to take this opportunity and to thank the social justice and Social Security committee for their hard work in scrutinizing this bill and indeed pay tribute to all the predecessor members I think it's gonna be about for rightly recognized that there are many newbies if you like participating in this debate we've inherited this important piece of work but nonetheless are very keen to make our contribution as the bill moves through its stages and indeed pandem can glancey a former of the committee who I know worked very hard on this bill as it passed through Committee in the stage one report process from the outset I want to be clear in stating that Scottish labor does support the bill and believes it is critically important the Charities operate with transparency and accountability and we recognize that the bill will update Scottish charity legislation aligning it with key tenants of regulations that govern charities in England Wales and Northern Ireland but I think in common with um what we've heard um from other opening speeches I think it is evident that some of the aspects of the bill it should be refined and clarified as the bill moves into stage two and stage three and indeed looking particularly at how the new regulations will impact and interact with different charities in different ways for example I think it's critically important that we don't overburden Charities um with regulation to such a degree that it stifles their ability and limits their resources uh to perform their primary function of delivering support for the causes of the champion and for the causes that are supported widely by the public in a variety of ways in terms of Regulation I think it is important that stage two that is greater focused perhaps placed on exploring the remit and resources of Oscar at the independent regular regulator and Registrar of Scotland's Charities to ensure that is proportionate increases of required in funding to ayoska to carry its responsibilities effectively and I appreciate we've already had at the beginning of a discussion about that wider piece of work that requires to be done reviewing the charity sector in Scotland and indeed the support they're in because I think it's clear that the wider context is important and I have already in this chamber highlighted the significant financial pressures that are facing third sector organizations across Scotland because we know that the reality is that the majority of Charities are small local organizations and with less than 10 percent of registered charities in Scotland having more than 20 employees and very often these organizations are firmly rooted in their community and relying on the tireless generosity and passion of volunteer tears to deliver vital support for those who need it indeed I mentioned last week in the chamber during my contribution to the the debate on socialized isolation and loneliness that in the context of the cost of living crisis large sector organizations are being asked to deliver more with less resource so we do I think need to recognize that whilst this is a technical build and there is a wider debate here about the third sector as a vital National resource and their expertise is unrivaled and the work that they do is invaluable and I think government is part of that wider review will want to consider the continuing conversation about funding uh long-term funding looking to move Beyond uh that one year to year funding of the third sector and looking at the availability of more core funding and indeed supporting representative bodies like the Scottish Council for voluntary organizations to actually drive forward a lot of these changes and support um Charities I think to grow their capacity actually to be people to seamlessly move through with these changes our third sector needs greater stability I think rather than being limited by continuous cycles of short-term funding and different interventions at different stages in terms of Regulation indeed during the consultation process for the bill several thoughts sector organizations actually highlighted that they were struggling to respond to the consultation simply because they didn't have capacity to draft a meaningful response within the time scale so I think that in itself tells us a story about the picture for many Charities indeed only a tiny fraction of the 25 000 registered charities in Scotland submitted a response to the consultation and indeed throughout those responses I think we thought and questions raised which we've already heard articulated about the impact of the legislation particularly around perhaps the creation of a register of Trustees um it's been highlighted by many Charities and indeed by The Faculty of Advocates the Charities already struggled to recruit charity trustees with the requisite skills passion and experience and indeed the time commitment to give to the Charities and I think although um we see in the bill that trustees perspective trustees will be able to apply to Oscar to preserve their anonymity and I think that whilst detecting accountability and disparities of Charities that is actually important to recognize that for many people decrease additional barriers to actually becoming a trustee and engaging particularly for people who perhaps are going through a period of Rehabilitation rebuilding their lives perhaps after criminal convictions or prison sentence and I do think we have to be mindful of the balance between protecting Charities and protecting the money people donate to Charities but also give everyone a fair crack of the Whip and an opportunity yes thank them much for giving away would you accept that from the point of view of trusting a charity if I'm a potential donor or I just want to find out about a charity it's a bit strange when you look at the report and there's no names and no trustees whatsoever okay I I I absolutely I mean I do take John Mason's point I I do think we have to find ways to share that information appropriately but I think that of course what the point I'm making here is the danger is we don't want to create too high a barrier for people who are going through that process of um trying to improve and better their lives um after a variety of situations and I think we do need to strike the balance because I think people want to have confidence they want to know who is in control of the charity who is is governing the charity I do think we just need to be quite careful about how we how we go about that and what the thresholds are for when someone can can remain anonymous so um I will presiding officer draw these remarks to close um I went to rhetorate Scottish liver support for the bill uh we want to call on the government to adopt an open positive approach and work with all parties to strengthen the bill to Iron Out perhaps some of the concerns that have been raised by Charities and moreover without just the cabinet secretary to engage further with Charities on that piece of work that she has committed to and really to ensure that the bill carries the confidence of the sector and that more widely we can have a conversation about how we strengthen and support Charities across Scotland thank you thank you Mr King and we will now move to the open debate I would advise members that it was quite a bit of time in hand should members be inclined to Seeker take or make interventions uh perhaps expand on their original thoughts on the matter and I call on Gordon McDonald to be followed by Douglas Lamson Mr McDonald thank you presiding officer and I'll not continue speaking this slowly I should highly I should highlight that I'm one of the relatively new members of the committee that Jeremy Balfour referred to earlier but I'll also take this opportunity to commend the clerks and previous members of the committee who led on this piece of work and of course the stakeholders Who provided invaluable evidence the Bell itself introduced in November 22 has undergone two consultations that attracted over 400 written responses and aims to strengthen and update the current legislative framework for charities it will do this by increasing transparency for example with the creation of a register of trustees and additional powers to the office of the Scottish charity regulator which includes being able to investigate Charities and charity trustees I support the general principles principles of the bill which I believe will ensure robust regulation as well as as improved openness accountability and transparency for our charities the charitable sector provides important and in some cases essential support across communities and to individuals from local Scout groups to training providers to play groups that reach us far and varied with every community in Scotland having at least one of the 25 000 Charities operating in Scotland in my constituency of Edinburgh penlands there are 263 registered Charities who many people in my area depend on for support however one in eight of those same Charities failed to submit their annual return and are currently flagged as defaulting therefore it is right that we look again at a legislation passed in 2005 to ensure it is fit for purpose submissions to the consultation recognize that the charity sector has changed and grown significantly since 2005.
With many citing the expectations from the public on Charities having changed in particular organizations funded by local and national government agencies are subject to more checks and balances than ever before a common theme among respondents was a need for greater transparency and accountability to maintain the Public's trust in the sector the pandemic had a profound impact on the sector and I'm certain members across the chamber will all be too aware of the pressure on them throughout that time some of the respondents believe this situation underlined the need for greater transparency as well as a need for wider reform giving the huge changes that happened in response to the challenges posed by the pandemic evidence submitted also highlighted a belief that the past three years following covid-19 has seen more change in the sector than ever before since 2005 Act was implemented in addition the consultation process which focused on potential improvements to the statutory charity regulation framework they were calls for a more fundamental review of the charitable sector and I am pleased that the cabinet secretary indicated her intention to consult further with the sector on this following the passage of this bill in terms of the provisions set out in the bill in general the reflect and I believe strengthen the proposals put forward by Oscar back in 2018 and as I already indicated the bill proposes giving Oscar wider powers to investigate Charities and charity trustees amending the rules and who can be a charity trustee or a senior officer in a charity increasing the information the Oscar holds about charity trustees updating the information which needs to be included on the Scottish charity register and creating a record of Charities that have merged it's clear from the majority of charitable organizations who responded that the proposed changes to the legislation is a welcome move by the Scottish government overall the evidence gathered agreed that the bill would lead to Greater transparency and charity regulation there were some concerns raised that the proposal would only be effective in increasing transparency and protecting the Scottish public if Oscar is appropriately resourced and able to implement its new powers and pleased that the cabinet secretary has taken us into consideration and given assurances additional obligations well significant will not be too burdensome and will work with Oscar to ensure they're supported of those that responded many recognize the increasing Oscar's powers to investigate calm and former Charities as well as broader coverage of the right to disqualify trustees will have a positive impact in protecting the public in addition many respondents believe that strengthening Oscar's Powers will act as a deter against maladministration which will go somewhere in offering assurances to the general public about management of funds a number of respondents supported the creation of a publicly searchable record of Trustees which they believed would increase transparency and protect the public against Rogue trustees who previously would be able to avoid scrutiny many smaller Charities understandably have concerns on whether or not any changes to the legislation Bridges out an additional cost to them particularly when we are still in the throes of a cost of living increase which undoubtedly has had a huge significant impact on their ability to operate I have welcomed their assurances from the Scottish government I set out the financial memorandum that whilst the changes may result in some of that Tisha a minister of time there should not be any additional costs finally presiding officer I welcome the cabinet secretary's earlier commitment to review the regulation of Oscar and any future wider review of charitable law following the passage of this bill this is fundamental and will go some way to ensure that charitable organizations are treated fairly in any dispute thank you Mr McDonalds then to be followed by Marie McNair our generous six minutes thank you Poseidon officer and I want to start by extending my thanks to the members and Clerks of the committee for producing this report that is not only helpful but clearly shows the views of our third sector throughout its findings and recommendations if beside enough I think we all agree that our third sector is the lifeblood of so many of our communities they provide on the ground service that governments struggle to provide they meet the needs of residents that large-scale organizations have difficulties in tackling whether that is befriending programs for the lonely rehabilitations for those affected by addiction or warm hubs for those who are struggling with household bills these small-scale local actions by our voluntary organizations are Central to the well-being and Community cohesion throughout Scotland I want to take this opportunity to thank the incredible Charities of the Northeast too many to name but if I could just highlight Camp Hill School Aberdeen big noise story and the men's shared network three fantastic Charities working with young people and adults in the Northeast who provide a vital service and resource in our community they deserve our thanks and our support because I know sir but reform of Charity legislation is long overdue and I joined with colleagues in welcoming this bill that we are considering today it goes some way to developing a clearer framework for Charities and their trustees in Scotland encouraging the use of technology and building Greater transparency into the system so that our third sector has greater accountability and access to support and help I also welcome the consultation that took place with the third sector when drafting this legislation it has been well thought through and the third sector has engaged widely although I note that only 12 of the 32 third sector interfaces responded to the consultation but I do recognize that this was during the pandemic when many organizations had to place resources elsewhere I support the committee's recommendation that the Scottish government looks again at how it engages the third sector in the future and would ask that the cabinet secretary if they could bring forward a plan of how that may happen for future consultations I note that many of the organizations who responded to the consultation did have concerns about the place of people with lived experiences as trustees under the new legislation and welcome the committee's focus on this in their report they clearly thought carefully about this issue and considered the implications on boards on recruiting trustees the committee calls for much greater Clarity on the disqualified disqualification criteria around bankruptcy and to ensure that the waiver process is well understood by the sector this will clearly require some work by Oscar to ensure that this is Place once the legislation has been passed here and we heard that from the convener already Poseidon officer as anyone involved in charities in Scotland knows recruitment of Trustees is challenging finding the right people to do the right job is difficult and this has been particularly highlighted in more rural communities it is important that this legislation does not dissuade anyone who is suitable from becoming a charity trustee and does not make the process cumbersome and therefore putting people off more clarity is also needed around the interim trustee process and in what that will mean in practice and I look forward to the committee considering this during the passage of the bill that is clearly a great deal of concern among Charities who responded to the consultation about the level of additional administrative burden that this will place on small charities as we know the majority of Charities are small and most are wholly staffed by volunteers it is vital that any additional Administration administrative responsibilities does not negatively impact on their ability to deliver services within our communities in the report Alzheimer's Scotland makes an important Point around the administrative and financial burden additional burdens should not put off any volunteer treasurers or administrators for the Charities as well this is a key concern that needs to be addressed moving forward with clear guidance from the government and Oscar and I.T Solutions put in place that makes it easier for Charities to report rather than harder although not included in this particular bill I think it's also worth highlighting the section in Annex a of the report around the auditing threshold for charities I understand that the level of income for charities in Scotland is slightly smaller but I would ask the cabinet secretary again to listen to the calls from the third sector on this issue I note one comment from the consultation held on the 1st of March from somebody who note that states anecdotally there is a lack of availability of Auditors which I'm sure members of the s p front bench would agree with and have some experience of recently finally presiding officer I support the principles of the bill and welcome this reform of the charity legislation more clarity is needed on some areas and I would Echo the views of the third sector and their calls for for clearer guidance in certain areas and I'm genuinely pleased to see that the Scottish government have listened to the concerns of the sector and have worked with them to develop this legislation I hope this can be a model for future legislation thank you thank you very much Mr Lumsden and I call Marie McNair to be followed by foisal chaudry around six minutes or so thank you for saying officer Charities play a vital role in supporting other communities particularly those who are in greatest need the pandemic and cost of living crises has continued to highlight just how vital the support Charities provide truly is and I see this firsthand with the terrific charities in my clay Bankai constituency I put on record my thanks to all the hard-working Charities who support those in need and work to improve our communities this bill is an important step we must take to strengthen the third sector in Scotland it has been 17 years since legislation concerning charity law in Scotland was passed and it's important that we have listened to Charities who have been calling for the Scottish government to update and strengthen current regulations it is right that as a starting point for updating this legislation the bill is centered on the Practical proposals put forward by the office of the Scottish charity regulator Scotland's Charities raise over 14 billion pounds each year so it's essential they're properly regulated Charities can exist without the support of generous donors and we know that these donors are more likely to support Charities when they're confident that those in charge are the right people to ensure their money has been used responsibly at the core of it Charities about trust when individuals become involved with the charity they're giving more than just their time and money and they deserve to know that those marginal donations and running the charity can be trusted to act in its best interest this bill will ensure that the public can trust the Charities most important to them by enhancing transparency and accountability across the sector Oscar already does vital to work overseeing the third sector in Scotland the grant charitable status they monitor compliance they investigate misconduct and much much more but currently it is clear that they do not have the powers to fulfill their core aim of ensuring transparency with the ability to issue Positive Directions publish annual Financial accounts for every charity a point income trustees were required for a maximum of 12 months and ensure individuals disqualified as trustees are known and unable to work in other Senior Management roles this bill will ensure that Oscar has made the enforcement Powers the need to meet their core aim of increasing transparency in the sector often Charities are benefited from their trustees being those who have lived the experience of a specific issue so I'm very conscious that there will be certain areas where due to their nature such as victim support organizations trustees must be afforded anonymity therefore as was included by the social justice and Social Security committee I'm glad that the provisions of the bill strike a good balance between greater transparency while also providing Avenues to protect the identity of Trustees where necessary what is most important about the proposals in this bill is that they in no way impact of Charity's ability to support those in need no decisions we make here we'll see nhrit have any absolutely sacrifice Frontline resources over half of all charitable organizations in Scotland have an annual income of under 25 000.
it would not take much additional regulatory burden to see the vital work these smaller Charities do significantly hampered with that in mind I'm pleased that the analysis conducted by the Scottish government found that Charities themselves are supportive of the proposals including this bill and don't foresee any other than the minor costs a finding it was also supported by the citizens advice Scotland it is important we also acknowledge the views of the experts who consulted on this bill the Law Society of Scotland stated these proposals are sensible and proportionate and that the register of Trustees names will directly increase transparency the chair of Oscar believed this bill will increase public trust in Scotland's 25 000 Charities and citizen advice Scotland highlighted that this bill will help to improve public confidence in the third sector and ensure that the benefits Charities provide Society are therefore maximized it is clear to me therefore that there is widespread support for these proposals from those who will be impacted the most I believe I suppose an important step we must take to support the third sector Charities will only continue to receive the donations that they urgently require if donors have full confidence that their donations are going to support those who need it most the improvements this bill make to transparency in the sector will go a long way to ensure donors continue to have confidence in the Charities they choose to support it is clear from the consultation that further work will be required as we continue to strengthen the Scottish charity sector however I am firmly supportive of this bow and believe it provides the best possible framework to begin comprehensively improving charity regulation in Scotland thank you thank you Miss McNair I know call face of Treasury to be followed by John Mason around six minutes please thank you presiding officer before I begin I would like to declare my interest as chair of the Edinburgh and Lothian Regional equality Council that the Charities regulation and administration Scotland Bill aims to update the current charity law in Scotland and Scottish labor welcome a much needed update as many of my colleagues have already mentioned the bill will pass more power into the hands of the Scottish charity regular regulator Oscar it will all it will hold Charities more accountable for the appointment of trustees and the publication of accounts it also increases transparency and accountability in Charities by increasing public access to information about the daily running of their charity these are of course welcome Improvement but are more uh in-depth review is still required as part of my role on the social justice and Social Security committee I highlighted these issues and then the cabinet secretary Shawna Robinson outlined that the implementation of this bill would help to guide a wider review of the charity sector in general I hope this uh I hope that this continues to be the case of course there are some key issues I would like to highlight with this bill the first is the concern that the consultation and engagement process did not go far enough many thought the engagement process was not well advertised both Zero Tolerance Scotland and the Edinburgh Rape Crisis Center where examples of the organization who did not have their capacity to interact with the consultation process in 2019 and 2021 they have expressed The View that the latest and the final consultation process was not advertised well enough for them to participate as well as there's smaller Charities and organizations were not given uh representative opportunity to contribute to their call for views I chair the Edinburgh and Lothian Regional equality Council and I can confirm that Elric were not made aware of any opportunity to participate in such consultations the Scottish woman convention and the children's hospice Association Scotland also expressed expressed concern about the publicity around the engagement events they expressed that it was not white reaching enough and not all third sector organization had the opportunity to express their concern and feedback some Charities also felt that they have not had their chance to fully contribute to the bill and that the development has been skewed towards the views of the Oscar I sincerely hope that the wider view of the charity sector that the cabinet secretary promised will seek to avoid this issue in the future with regards to smaller third sector organization have been made aware that there are some concerns about some of the provisions of the bill specifically with regards to the provision on the publication of accounts and implementation of register of Trustees of course we welcome the transparency and accountability that this will bring but there is concern about if this will this uh proportionally affect smaller third sector organization Foundation Scotland Express concern that the administrative burden placed on the Charities due to the new provision may feel disproportionate for smaller charities The Institute of chartered accounts in Scotland Express that smaller Charities and third sector organizations are also likely to feel daunted about the implementation of a register of trustee this is both in terms of complying with the requirements and securing disclosure exemptions on grounds of Safety and Security if this Implement implementation of this bill does not look like a greater burden to smaller Charities one that were largely left out of the consultation process then I hope an adjustment period can be introduced to assist the affected organization but first and foremost I hope that Scottish government will be able to provide Assurance going forward that this bill will not disproportionately affect smaller third sector organization thank you thank you very much Mr chair I know coach John Mason to be followed by Maggie Chapman around six minutes thank you very much representing officer I appreciate the opportunity to take part today as members will know I've not been a member of the committee either previously or currently dealing with the bill so have not been involved in taking evidence or preparing the report however perhaps that has some advantages and I come to it without a lot of preconceived notions I may also say that I'm currently a trustee of one charity that is fair share trust but have been involved in a variety of ones over the years starting with what is actually in the bill a whether or not trustee's names should be in the public domain has clearly been considered by the committee at some length and it has argued a well-increased transparency and accountability although I do note that there's been some concern about this including from The Faculty of Advocates and I do fully accept that there needs to be some right of privacy so a degree that for example home addresses should not be shown however the right to privacy it seems to me surely has to have some limits and be balanced against other rights and public expectations in preparation for today's debate my staff and I were looking at the published reports and accounts of a few Glasgow charities for example one charity which I have had some concerns about I have to say it had all the trustee names redacted and apart from the fact that I think that looks very odd in comparison to say a business or Housing Association report it does give myself or any member of the public a real problem one of the reassurance is a concerned person or a potential donor can have when looking at a charity is to see the names of the trustees and gaining reassurance that they are known to some extent and trustworthy becoming a charity trustee is not to be taken lightly and Carries certain responsibilities with it therefore I do very much believe that it is important that trustee names are published except in very exceptional circumstances moving on to the issue of disqualifying trustees because of bankruptcy presumably neither Charities themselves nor potential donors nor The Wider public want trustees to be managing charity finances if they cannot manage their own personal finances at the same time the point is correctly made that we do want people with lived experience who can bring practical reality to the way a charity operates so once again there is a balance to be struck I thought the cabinet secretary I assume the previous cabinet secretary's answer was helpful in that many of the disqualifications are time limited if someone has made a mistake in the past or if they've got into financial trouble through no fault of their own then they must be given the opportunity to turn their lives around and get another chance but I think it does no harm to have a bit of breathing space in that process another point which is made is that someone can have a huge input to a charity without actually being a trustee being a trustee is a responsible as a responsibility it is not a reward and as Oscar says public trust and confidence is very important the range of other issues which I will just mention in passing I know the cabinet secretary made the point that she felt all trustees should be treated in the same way but I do actually wonder if that is the case a trustee for a charity with income of say 25 000 pounds surely does not carry the same level of responsibility as the trustee for a charity with income of 25 million pounds on inter interim and temporary trustees I do think that some people might be willing to take on such a role just because it was time limited and they would not be making such a long-term Commitment if they took on being a trustee and normal circumstances and I would have to say that I personally might consider an interim role whereas I wouldn't consider a long-term one but that's not an invitation for people to contact me I have to say that one point I did not really understand was the information in the accounts could be used maliciously against the Charities and I was not really clear what the committee meant by that a availability of Auditors or the lack of them was raised by icas of which I should say I am a member um and I think with the so many Charities being under 25 000 pounds it is worth considering if any checks are really needed on that at all whereas independent examination is clearly an important alternative for medium-sized charities but clearly it seems to me the risk of misappropriation increases with income and I would have reservations if the threshold for an audit was raised from half a million pounds to 1 million pounds as icast suggests a lot can go wrong with an income of half a million pounds and I think it's the risk factor which should be decisive in that question moving on to what is not in the bill I did say in my own brief submission to the consultation that I considered we need a more fundamental review of Charity law and I'm glad to see that a number of other organizations said the same including the Law Society of Scotland and annexee and the committee's report touches on this it seems to me that we have at least three different types of Charities at the moment in Scotland and they are all very different from each other that is the small local charity which is working in the local community or perhaps raising funds for our school overseas and it is run entirely by volunteers then there are much larger Charities who are also doing that same kind of work but with a large number of staff and possibly Government funding and we think of Charities like Oxfam bernardo's sspca in that category and again there are other big organizations like Glasgow life housing associations universities and the like which are probably not really charities in the traditional sense of the world now I have no problem with any of these bodies getting tax breaks as they do which I think is one of the incentives for being a charity and they do certainly fulfill charitable purposes in Glasgow life's case I think they claim to fulfill seven of the purposes for a for being a charity but I still wonder if we should really be calling something like Glasgow life a charity I think that is a bit misleading in use of the word and I feel it dilutes the the positive feeling that many people have around Charities and maybe we need to look in the long term at new definitions of the word but in closing I'm very happy to support the bill at stage one and I hope the bill will be followed by more wide-ranging legislation in the future thank you thank you very much Mr Mason I know call Maggie Chapman who joins us remotely to be followed by Pam Duncan glancy around six minutes Miss Chapman officer I am pleased to contribute to this debate today in support of the general principles of this bill on behalf of the Scottish greens and I refer members to my register of interests I was previously employed in different roles within the charitable sector and I am a member of some others Charities the third sector play a vital role in our communities they often support us at some of the most difficult or challenging times in our lives they provide crucial sometimes life-saving services for us as individuals families and whole communities they Advocate on our behalf when we cannot or might not be able to speak for ourselves they provide constructive Challenge and critique for all levels of government on policy Direction and this and decisions they build resilience and provide protections across all of our communities their hard work often going unseen and sadly often undervalued too our society would not function without these services and supports and the often selfless work that so many contribute to our Collective well-being it is therefore vital that the regulatory framework within which Charities operate is up to date and serves both the Charities and wider society as well as possible as we've heard already this afternoon charity law in Scotland has not been significantly amended since the Charities and trustee Investments Scotland act 2005 was enacted the bill we debate today aims to update the current system of Charity regulation by improving transparency and accountability enhancing public trust by providing greater protection for charity assets and the charity brand through stronger enforcement powers and improving the efficiency of Oscar's operations if passed as the cabinet cabinet secretary has outlined this technical bill will make a number of amendments to that 2005 act it seeks to give Oscar the charity regulator wider powers to investigate Charities and charity trustees it amends the rules on who can be a trustee or a senior office holder in a charity vital roles that must be properly supported and it increases the information that Oscar holds about charity trustees it also updates the information that is required to be included on the Scottish charity register and to create a record of Charities that have merged importantly all of this seeks to make Charities more accountable and transparent in their governance and operational Arrangements I am very grateful to the social justice and Social Security committee for its detailed scrutiny of this bill over recent months and its stage one report published last month as someone who does not sit on that committee I found this report very helpful to better understand the issues covered in this technical legislation others have already highlighted specific issues or areas of concern but I just want to reinforce the calls made on the Scottish government for early and direct engagement with the breadth of the charity sector not only over the coming stages of the spill but for any and all future views of Charity law in Scotland similarly we should all share the responsibility for the provision of clear information to ensure the sector as a whole is aware of the provisions in The Spill and that there is shared understanding of the implications of the legislation for Charities and Regulators alike bill is clearly not intended to be a complete review or a form of Charity law but rather to enhance the measures that already exist however the various consultations that have led us to today particularly what the social justice and Social Security committee heard are clear a more comprehensive review of the 2005 legislation is required and I'm grateful to the cabinet secretary for her statements of intent Around The Wider reviews said there are things that this build specifically greens would like to see charitable concessions for activities that are Goods in and of themselves such as the generation of zero carbon energy in the same way as poverty alleviation or supporting vulnerable people are seen as legitimate and laudable charitable purposes Charities shouldn't have to go through the bureaucratic process of setting up trading subsidiaries just to do good we would also like to see the explicit inclusion of each of the protected characteristics currently covered in the equality act into charity law religion is obviously already covered and rightly so but we consider there to be benefit to ensuring all protected characteristics are treated similarly in charity legislation however I appreciate these or substantial proposals and along with many of the other issues raised by other groups and organizations some of which have already been highlighted this afternoon these would all be better considered as part of that wider review already planned for future years so in closing presiding officer I would like to thank all those Charities individuals and other agencies and groups who have contributed to the consultations and committee evidence sessions so far this input is invaluable to our scrutiny of any legislation but perhaps is especially important when dealing with such technical legislation about organizations and the sector that supports so much of our lives I know there is still work to do and I look forward to following the progress of this bill through the forthcoming stages thank you thank you very much Miss Chapman and I call Pam Duncan grants you to be followed by Ferguson around six minutes thank you deped an officer Charities and third sector organizations worked tirelessly to deliver for communities right across Scotland they deliver Services develop policies provide volunteering and paid work contributing hugely to the economy and even provide food shelter and financial support direct to people in all of our constituencies without them many people across Scotland and in the Glasgow region would be left isolated in poverty alone and without the essential care and support that they need and so I'd like to put on record just now my thanks to all the third sector organizations and the people working in them up and down our country today that's why I and my party welcome this bill which aims to bring regulation in the sector up to date and in line with other areas of the UK for the most part it does so but I want to use my contribution today to highlight some areas where we need the government to be a bit clearer and to act and I want to reinforce the importance of supporting and resourcing the third sector organizations to make sure that they're not left to implement changes on their own one of the key areas I think is communication communicating the changes in the bill the bill makes will be key for the vast number of third sector organizations and the government must be prepared to take a phone active role in that it cannot leave the already stretched sector to do it themselves we heard evidence in committee and I'd like to thank everyone who gave evidence to us on this from counterparts across the UK of the importance of not underestimating the scale of communication needed and I hope that the government will take on board their advice from experience as it progresses Clarity will be important too particularly around the categories of people who can and can't be trustees or senior members of Charity staff recruitment is tough and the committee heard that loud and clear and we have heard in this chamber the same this afternoon so whatever processes are put in place to ensure due diligence which is crucial also must be clear on processes to waive the the obstruction to taking up those posts for some people being involved in charity work can turn their life around that's why I'm Keen to hear what specifically the government can do to ensure the impact of the rules on who can and can't be involved at those levels is proportionate promoted and understood and doesn't undermine efforts to recruit or efforts on equality so you know sir the committee heard that this bill is welcome but that it is also largely Oscar's bill they told us that the current regulatory landscape is broader than this and in some ways is cluttered and that the government didn't engage widely enough across the third sector to get this wider perspective early enough for these Reasons I'm pleased to come as committee to await a review of Charity law and regulation going forward it's crucial that that review is independent carried out with the third sets are and that they're supported to participate in it not expected to carry out the engagement on their own because the sector really is struggling they're still waiting for multi-year funding and with it the certainty and ability to plan for future years significant numbers of organizations fear they could close and volunteers and staff are stretched but regardless they are still powering on and they're still acting as the last line of defense for the people the state some cannot help the sector needs that certainty of funding and they need to know that they will have the support and resources they need to engage in the implementation of this bill and the development of an independent review and closing presiding officer I would like to take this opportunity to thank the secretary volunteers and staff again for all they do including those in the Glasgow region organizations like partic thistle Community Trust whose invaluable impact on their Community I've seen firsthand and praised in this chamber like healthy and happy and rutherglen who support and encourage our community to flourish like Glasgow disability Alliance who Advocate tirelessly for the rights of disabled people and like grow 73 which brings roglonians together to make a positive impact on the environment and transform the local community whilst building friendship in the process and of course I want to pay tribute to to the work of scvo to support and promotion of the sector enables it to develop and grow and who never stops driving to push volunteer organizations to reach their full potential I will I'm very grateful to my colleague for taking the intervention she's she's speaking about a CVO and you know I think it's crucial that in any process of uh moving forwards and looking at reform of the sector that acbo are a strong strong partner and certainly take a leadership role in that because of their extensive work in representing Charities across Scotland of different size and scales so with pandem can go to agree with me that and when the cabinet secretary brings forward a plan around the next stage of engaging with Charities ACV will very much need to be the heart of that my colleague and member for um for that intervention and I wholeheartedly agree and my hesitancy there was was was not to to take the intervention at that point but was to wonder whether um I was able to do so in the last seconds of my speech so I thank the member for that uh intervention sevo's support and promotion of the sector really does enable it to develop and grow and and support people they never stop striving to push volunteer organizations to reach the full potential and so I do hope that they will be involved in that further review as my colleague does too their work is invaluable and we should do all that we can to support them and the rest of the sector thank you thank you very much Miss Duncan glancy and I call the final speaker in the open debate at Fergus hewing a lavishly generous six minutes Mr um you're so kind uh presenting officer thank you for that and uh as Pam Duncan glancy so eloquently has said we we all of us over debt to those who who give their time freely generously copiously to support charitable efforts throughout the country and indeed Scotland would not be what it is without the effort of those individuals because I also just add my my own thanks to um to Oscar to the charity to the people that work in Oscar and I had the privilege of being the minister with oversight responsibility between 211 and 16 and particularly enjoyed working with the very reverent Graham Forbes who who chaired Oscar for I think um eight years from 2011.
um today's debate is about the regulation of Charities and regulation Charities is absolutely necessary we've heard reasons for this I think John Mason has made a number of telling points about this incidentally Joe Mason was right I think to say that the audit limit should not be increased to a million pounds I think he's absolutely spot on with that um but it is about regulation of Charities and we must be mindful when we create regulations in this place that we only do so when they're necessary the the comply with certain overriding public policy objectives and these are set out actually in the regulatory review group the Scottish government's body that has policy responsibility for looking at regulation and as I recall from from memory um the these are the regulations should be proportionate they should not be unduly burdensome and they should not result in excessive cost in terms of compliance taking account the size scale of Charity and so on and so forth and these are sensible desirable principles to which I think we should all comply and and of which we should be mindful now I want to talk about one particular regulatory impost I think which we really would do well to to look again at um before I come to that recently of course the first Minister held a poverty Summit in which he well he he reaffirms the objective of tackling indeed eradicating poverty in Scotland and that that was welcome and heartfelt and absolutely Paramount importance of what we're doing in this place and I don't think many people whatever party we're in would demer from that point of view and I think we also know that Charities play an absolutely pivotal role in helping to alleviate poverty in a whole host of ways across Scotland and this is something that that people are passionate about and motivates them as Volunteers in Charities and perhaps the Bull Work of that charitable effort I think presiding officer rise in our churches our church is certainly in my constituency are behind a huge amount of the voluntary effort that goes on in trying to help people who most need help whether it's Church of Scotland members who might have met at food banks who volunteer for their time every week to go along to help out those people whether it's simply an organizing coffee mornings Raffles events for the benefit of people who need that help most whether it's the Salvation Army whose work is truly magnificent in helping men that have perhaps lost the way in life the churches are behind so many things all of the churches are not talking just about the Church of Scotland which I remember but all churches all face and across Scotland this effort is is terrific and there is one piece of Regulation not in this bill which I I broadly welcome but uh but in another piece of legislation which also regulates Charities designing officer which is the register of persons holding a controlled interest in land regulations 2021 now these regulations were set up in to pursue land under form policy objectives principally that those landed Estates held in trust or by limited companies are often secretive in the sense that people living in those parts of Scotland don't know who the owners are and that creates a number of very practical problems uh and I think that's the aim of the legislation although I wasn't involved in it but it was never intended that for example in the case of the church in Scotland who have 6 000 properties that the names of every official in every congregation in every Church in Scotland have to be entered on this register who in what sense is the Republic interest that this information requires to be disclosed and moreover presumably as office Builders change as they do on a very very frequent basis for all sorts of obvious reasons that register then has to be updated with a whole ream of information that nobody's interested in it's not in a public interest it's not required and indeed in this bill in one of the sections of this bill as the cabinet secretary pointed out at the beginning there is a rightly a duty to provide details of the trustees I think Mr Mason referred to that as well as the cabinet secretary yes I'll certainly take an intervention Jeremy Balfour uh I'm grateful for member chicken Dimension we also agree with me that the people who are Trustees for these properties actually it is a congregation that control them they are simply names on a piece of paper they themselves cannot dispose of the property without the congregation's approval absolutely a spot on relevant Point Mr Balfour makes presiding officer entirely agree with that now why am I mentioning this because I said well I'm mentioning it because of this that's at the moment much of the money that churches raise goes to alleviate poverty but the Church of Scotland in a letter which I I imagine other msps have received and they sent us in January this year uh pointed out that having to provide all this information for 6 000 properties will involve them in legal and administration costs of hundreds of thousands of pounds now where is that money coming from well it's going to come from money that would otherwise continue to go to alleviate poverty and to help the poorest people in the country now this has been raised with the minister for um for land reform who was Mary McAllen I think now Marie guzan's responsibility and I appreciate the cabinet secretary does not have her own responsibility for this matter but I raise it because it is part of the overarching regulation of Charities it's not in this bill before us but I think it does need to be looked at again and I personally think that churches should be Exempted because you know we're we're not there's no land reform interest whatsoever now that could be done possibly by Amendment of this bill or perhaps by um by secondary legislation is probably more appropriate but I do raise it and I take this opportunity to raise a presiding officer and I raise it um in doing so sorry sorry I didn't see the number yes Paula came I'm very I'm very grateful to focusing for taking an intervention and I think he's making a very important point which is related of course uh to the way the regulation of Charities and indeed my inbox has been filled with members of sessions from across researchers in Scotland who are very concerned by this would he recognize that there may be an opportunity given the general assembly of the Church of Scotland will meet from the 25th of May for the minister to perhaps re-engage with the general assembly and the general Trustees of the Church of Scotland to try and find some kind of way forward Ferguson I know the minister ministers have met with the church and made lots of efforts thus far they've ruled out exempting churches I think that actually is Justified and I think the reasons for doing so I'm afraid just don't stand up in water I can understand Minister's reluctance to amend regulations that have only recently been passed but nonetheless I I hope I've made the argument and in closing um presiding officer having had this this lavish generosity from your good self in closing if I have made the case so that members across the party it's not a political point in any way whatsoever but if other members fuel I've made this point in a reasonable fashion today and that this is something which we reopen then as I try to do in any issues I'd be very happy to work across party with other members to try to bring about a change which would achieve the first Minister's aim of helping in a small way to tackle poverty and continue to do so a small way hundreds of thousands of pounds can do a lot to help a few people and as they used to say money and Michael maximuckle thank you Mr Ewing you're doing Justice to my lavish generosity which I now bestow upon at Paul O'Kane it closed for again A Generous six minutes Mr okay I'm very grateful Deputy presiding officer to you for indeed your lavish generosity and I will attempt to uh justify that lavish generosity by my closing speech I I think we've had an important debate this afternoon in which we have heard I think a broad uh consensus here in the parliament for the general principles of this bill as the cabinet secretary outlined in her opening is of course a technical bill um and Isabel I think we are agreed to in terms of trying to tidy up the legislation to make it stronger and to ensure that the public have um confidence in Charities across Scotland and indeed to ensure that there is uh that Scotland is in line with England at Wales and Northern Ireland and I think what we've heard across the pieces that in the further stages of this bill there will be the requirement for refinement and for Clarity on a number of points which were raised by members across the chamber today and Colette Stevenson and her new role as convener to it I I welcome her um I I think made important contributions on behalf of the committee pointing out that actually um The Wider review which the cabinet secretary has committed to will be important in terms of trying to engage with in the third sector on not just these issues but also wider issues that they have raised with the committee I thought she made an excellent point in terms of we need to start that engagement early and ensure that the third sector is approached from the very beginning and I think smaller charity is being included in that we've heard a lot today about the Charities that many members know from their own parts of of Scotland and I think it's important that they have a strong voice in everything that we do because they are the people who make the change in communities and again the importance of those Charities was highlighted by Jeremy Balfour in his opening speech and I thought he made an excellent point about um good governance being crucial actually to the functioning of Charities but um like many others I think he highlighted that greater support is required um and I think stability of Charities is required in order to make sure that they can can meet their obligations and can continue to serve the communities so well in terms of Charities serving communities and the particular challenges that I think exist for a charity Douglas lumsden's Point about um the challenge of recruiting trustees was important I think particularly his point about rural communities and many members across the chamber represent rural communities and we know that charitable organizations in small towns and Villages are very often the lifeblood of everything that goes on in those communities they are often um long-standing historical institutions as well and it can be hard in a modern context to get people enthused to take on the roles of being a trustee of dealing with the finance and operation of of the charity and particularly in smaller communities so I do think we have to have our eyes open to that challenge and to make sure that we aren't putting unnecessary barriers in place for people who may want to become trustees because I think as I said in my opening it's about taking a balance I think it's about having a balance between transparency and making sure that there is public confidence but I think um ensuring that we don't make a regulation over cumbersome and put people off who may otherwise want to become engaged and I thought hey John Mason again made important points in in this space and indeed that exchange uh in his intervention I think was important about trying to find that balance I I thought his um points about interim and temperature of these were important because very often Charities need perhaps a bit of bridging support if you like and there are people who maybe have professional expertise who are willing to do that but don't often feel that they have the confidence or the the kind of um the legal wherewithal to be able to do that and I also think this amazing is an important point in terms of maybe the Widow regulation of uh charities in terms of reporting I thought his point about Charities under 25 000 pounds you do we need to look again at how they report into Oscar and the level of scrutiny of their accounts I think that's an important point and I think hopefully in part of the wider conversation we have we can look at some of those issues as well and communication presiding officers was raised as an issue I think both communication of the consultation and I mentioned in my opening that many Charities felt unable to contribute to the the committee's consultation because of the lack of um capacity but foreign I think rightly highlighted but many Charities just weren't aware and hadn't actually heard um that there was a consultation ongoing so I do hope the government will reflect on that because pandem can glancy um I think made an excellent point that communication of the changes and when the bill eventually clears its parliamentary process will be vital to make sure that everybody knows what is expected of them and what they need to do so I think communication is a key point that we need to look at as a parliament and indeed hopefully the government will want to reflect some of that when they come back to the chamber and as I have said a presiding officer the Scottish labor party supports the principles of the bill I think we all want to see charities in Scotland that are well governed uh are transparent that people can have trust in we want to make sure that when people um donate to charity they do so with confidence we want to know that when they volunteer for the charity they do that knowing that the charity is reputable I think there are of course wider points that have been brought out in the debate which um really talk about the health of the third sector in Scotland clearly there are a multitude of challenges not least um recovery from the pandemic the cost of living presses the demand for services but also I think a longer term lack of strategy to fund and support Charities particularly things like three-year funding Cycles which we have talked about for a long time in this Parliament and haven't been delivered so I do think we need to look at all of that in the round and make sure that we are supporting Charities and I actually thought figures doing these points about some of those wider issues that affect faith-based Charities on our churches and we can get away from the fact that other pieces of legislation that are interacting here and we need to take a look at that and I think across the chamber there is a cross-party concern about um some of those issues that he raised and certainly very happy to have a further conversation with him as I'm sure others are as well so I think I am now going over the score presiding officer in terms of your generosity and so I wouldn't want to fulfill of of the chair so I think in in concluding I would say that I think there is a real willingness on behalf of certainly this side of the chamber to work with the government to get this bill right to make sure that it does what it sets out to do and to make sure that we take people with us in the charity sector across Scotland and we look forward indeed to that wider piece of work that the cabinet secretary has committed to thank you very much thank you very much Mr hurricane I'm not sure you're entirely reading my body language but nevertheless I now call miles of Briggs again A Generous seven minutes thank you very much Deputy presiding officer and can I start by declaring interest as the chair of part of Scotland heart research UK appeal board here in Scotland and as others have done can I thank our clerks and those who have given evidence to the committee as well um but you know very much to thank the Charities and organizations across Scotland for the work that they do in our communities and I think from outset as we've heard from other members nothing which this bill brings I hope will impact on that something we really wanted to make sure especially smaller Charities um across the country and it is worth reflecting I think that my colleague Jeremy Balfour and I are the only two members who took evidence on this bill and we are the only two original members of the committee and you know conservatives said we would be strong and stable so we are definitely uh demonstrating that in this Parliament today um but there's a number of issues I wanted to raise with regards to the bill and it is important because let's face it as other members have mentioned Scottish Charities have a combined income of over 15 billion pounds in Scotland employee at 200 000 people so it is important that they do operate in a regulatory framework which really safeguards that funding and these jobs as well and looking towards what we're doing uh today and with this bill charity law and which we are operating under has been in place for 17 years so it has been necessary to modernize how this operates and to provide more transparency I think none of us would agree uh disagree with that and there's very sensible things within the bill looking to allow for provision of information around trustees updating law in relation to disqualification criteria allowing the appointment of emergency charity trustees that's an issue which I pursued in committee and still want to see more clarification on with regards to who these individuals will be whether or not there'll be a scotland-wide group of individuals and I think we still need to have more clarification of that we can seek that at stage two but that's something um which I still want to to see Parliament and ministers pursue and and as has been touched on previously and in the intervention to to the cabinet secretary I am concerned with regards to Lifetime gifts and charity mergers um I think in the future we will potentially see fewer Charities and not necessarily because of this bill but because of um future changes and where direction of travel is and part of my concern is we are seeing at this moment in time many people very generously giving lifetime gifts in their Wills but what happens to these if a charity is merged and I don't think necessarily inheritance law has been taken into account with this it's something at stage two again I'd like to see more clarification on um from government because I think we need to make sure that is not something and we we particularly burden other Charities with and as a number of members have um stated in this debate that is very important and Douglas Lumsden Paul O'Kane and vigil choudhary made this very point that this bill must not become overburdensome on Charities and especially small Charities who are just um fully volunteer-led and I think that's something and a reason why many of these Charities have not engaged in this process they might not have been aware of it or they would not have the capacity to actually input into um the Parliament and the government's consultation so I think that's something we need to to take on board as well and also with particular regard is where we look towards um the bill look towards um requiring Charities to have a connection to Scotland this is something I asked at committee around a definition of I don't think we've necessarily worked out a charity which isn't registered as a charity in Scotland but maybe a uk-wide and charity just undertaking research for example in Scotland what impact that would have and a unintended consequences in both John Mason and Fergus Ewing have pointed towards this is something we need to be very mindful of within this bill as it moves forward and I do think actually John Mason made some interesting points maybe not for this bill and but future consultations and reforms because it did seem very unfair that a charity operating in Scotland with an income of less than 25 000 pounds that could be a church Hall anywhere in Scotland is under the same regulation and I do think that's something to look at I don't know whether or not that is an income threshold and whether know it is in employment um threshold because there's obviously different criteria and costs around Administration but I do think that's something we haven't had an opportunity to input into this it's probably not something the government would open up at stage two but it is something I think and we need to be mindful of and whether or not we can have different criterias for that is something I I was Keen to pursue and hope there is a cross-party consensus maybe on on taking that forward in the next Parliament um I believe the government did state that they might consult before the end of this Parliament on what that would look like and so I think there's an opportunity there for for us to do that um and the the final point I wanted to make was with regards to the recruitment of interim trustees and as I've stated I don't think necessarily um and I know the government's written to committee we discussed this this morning uh a rain clarification of who these individuals would be I think that's really important and the appeals process attached to that for for individuals who might not be suitable and so it is something I hope we have an opportunity to have further clarification at stage two and which is coming very quickly and down the line um but finally can I thank everyone who has contributed um to this debate and also to the work of the committee and if there's one thing which I think we have heard loud and clear as a committee it is how Charities um want to actually make sure that every single penny they raise is going to the front line of the causes they are trying to advance in Scotland and I certainly have been clear in in our work on the committee that we didn't want this to be in any way a burdensome on them I taken to I take the point and have reached out to church Scotland as well with the points focusing raised I think we need to look again at that and and the registration I know other Charities have also made the point in terms of privacy and Charities who are operating in very different circumstances where that's fully understandable so Scottish conservatives will be supporting um the bill as proposed at stage one as the new convener Collette Stevenson has stated though that is the support of the general principles of this bill we now need to see ministers provide detailed answers for the sector and then collectively I think this is a bill at which Parliament can improve going forward thank you thank you and I call on Shirley Ann Somerville to wind up cabinet secretary thank you very much a presiding officer and can I thank members from across the chamber for the constructive spirit that today's debate has been um carried out in and I look forward to working um with them as we work towards a stage two under further deliberations I'm also pleased to um welcome Stevenson to her new role as committee convener I look forward to working with her and indeed the experienced and also new members of the committee I was going to say old there and I thought no the experienced members of the committee are those that have just joined by I've been able he supported my preparations for the debate debate by my two Junior Minister who were on the committee and did um actually hear all the evidence in in front of you um today has been a really important chance for all of us to reflect on the importance um of Charities and the important roles that trustees play and I myself and have been a trustee in the past um a chronically enough given my current portfolio I used to be a trustee for um shelter which they have reminded me of carefully since I've taken on my role in social justice but certainly on my time I absolutely did recognize the really important role that I trustee it can play in a charity and that's one of the reasons why this bill is so important yes it's quite Technical and we've been through some of that today but it is about ensuring that we've got the best possible conditions for the charity sector to thrive and to strengthen in our communities The public's support of Charities is strong public trust is strong and we need to make sure that that continues and it is very important that we reflect on the the sheer um Breads and depths of the charity sector that we have here in Scotland now there's been a number of contributions um today which are not technically to do with what's in the bill but very very important and they I hope can be some of the aspects if people wish that we want to take forward in the wider review um of the framework for Charities this was very clear again during the consultations and the discussions with stakeholders as well they support the principles behind this bill but they are Keen for more to be done and that's exactly why as I said in my original um remarks and that we are committed to a wider review of Charity regulation Nation following the passage of that bill the way to review I think can explore how regulation can help and improve the situation for all Charities but especially the smaller Charities which again have been mentioned by a number of contributors today and they make up the majority of course off the Scottish charity sector I'm also well aware of the pressures particularly the smaller Charities um are under um under um absolute determination to ensure as we move forward with any wider review we are working with the charity sector from the largest to the smallest Charities to ensure that we are engaging with everyone as we move forward with this we will take time to work with them to design the the review and what needs to be taken account in that and absolutely am happy to confirm the organizations like scvo which have been mentioned today and will play an important role in that again a number of members have mentioned a very important aspect that we all have a responsibility to try and encourage and that's about the diversity of experience on charity boards that is very very important and that's particularly important for Charities who want to ensure that those with lived experience are part of their trustee boards now the aspects that owned automatic disqualification and the extension of that to match those in other parts of the UK is not designed to exclude those with lived experience from participation on charity boards the measures are designed to address a comparative weakness in the regularity system here in Scotland that could undermine public trust and confidence in the charity brand the existing waiver system and its extension to the new criteria demonstrates that the law recognizes there will be cases where a person who has disqualified can still and should still hold the trustee or senior management position and it's important that we encourage a Charities to recognize that that is there and to take advantage of that should we wish to do so Jeremy balfan and others discussed the appointment of interim trustees now that power to appoint interim trustees is a targeted power it's very much intended to just be used in emergency measures to address situations where for example there are no trustees there to take decisions it is a Time limited measure to safeguard Charities and charitable assets and to get the charity back up and running now in situations like that where there are no trustees about um a dispute mechanism I would contend is not necessary but if Mr welfare or other members believe that this is something that should be looked at I would be of course happy to meet with members as we progress to stage two to see if anything more needs to be done on that charity trustees are as many people have mentioned are responsible for managing money and property donated to the public in good faith and that's why a result of current and proposed quality disqualification criteria they're based on behaviors or conduct that government considers makes a person unsuitable to hold office as a charity trustee and for this to be extended to those in senior management positions disqualification on the grounds of a specified offense or bankruptcy is time limited and once that convention is spent or the bankruptcy is the charge that disqualification falls in the interim the individual can participate in the charity in alternative ways for example as a volunteer or can apply to Oscar for a waiver the challenges that are faced by smaller Charities um I I would like to spend a little bit more um time on now we do recognize that um the concerns about the administrative burdens uh that this um bill would give to Charities and particularly to smaller Charities but I would say and try to reassure members on the fact that the main administrative change that will impact in following from this is the provision of trusty information to Oscar and this will take place um using Oscar's existing online system that Charities will be well familiar with and of course it will be something that will be done over time so the development the introduction and the population of this internal schedule of Charity trustees is likely to take place over two to three years for example and therefore Charities will have significant time to prepare but it is important and I reassure members that we will continue to work with Charities and as we go forward with this bill and in the implementation to sure we are fully recognizing of any buttons that are being placed but particularly on smaller charities in relation to that of course I would say that is anticipated that will be two commencement regulations for this bill one in Spring 24 and one in summer 25 this will not only allow Oscar sufficient time to prepare and consult on the new guidance but then very importantly and again this has been something raised by a number of members to communicate this to Charities and to ensure that they are well prepared for the changes so in conclusion presiding officer I think the message from today's debate is therefore that there is Broad agreement on the general principles of this Bill yes there's work to do but I certainly hope that we can work together on that as we move to stage two and it's very important I hope also to send a clear signal out from the chamber today about this parliament's determination to support Scotland's Charities I do look forward the bill progressing into the next stage but I would end very importantly once again by thanking all those who work in our third sector for everything that they do day in day out to support communities not just across Scotland but across the world thank you Poseidon officer foreign that concludes the debate on Charities regulation and administration Scotland bill at stage one it's time to move on to the next item of business which is consideration of motion 8683 on a financial resolution for the Charities regulation and administration Scotland bill and I invite Shirley Ann Somerville to move the motion cabinets news present officer thank you the question on this motion will be put at decision time and I am minded to accept a motion without notice under rule 11.2.4 of standing orders that decision time be brought forward to now and I invite the minister for parliamentary business to move the motion thank you president officer and moved thank you and the question is that decision time be brought forward to now are we all agreed we are agreed and the first question is that motion 8870 in the name of Shirley Ann Somerville on Charities regulation and administration Scotland will be agreed are we all agreed the motion is therefore agreed the final question is that motion eight 683 in the name of Shona Roberson on a financial resolution for the Charities regulation and administration Scotland will be agreed are we all agreed the motion is therefore agreed that concludes decision time and I close this meeting foreign