Scottish Government Debate: Reversal of the UK Government’s Two-child Benefit Cap – 4 October 2023

okay the next item of business is a debate on Motion 10716 in the name of Shan suil on reversal of the UK government's two child benefit cap I'd invite members wishing to participate in the debate to press the request to speak buttons now or as soon as possible I do note that some members who are due to speak in the debate are not present um we have not had an explanation of that and I will expect one and an apology in due course and I call on shle am sunville to speak to and move the motion uh around 13 minutes cabinet secretary thank you presiding officer I move the motion in my name and I'm pleased to open this debate and to call unequivocally on the UK government to end the harmful and discriminatory two child limit and abhorent rape clause in 2017 the UK government introduced the two child limit a policy which removed a household's financial support for a third or subsequent child born after the 6 of April 2017 that is unless the mother of the child gains exemption through special circumstances those being of the child was part of a multiple birth or for a child born as a result of rape this summer I was absolutely astonished to hear Kier starmer confirm that a labor government would maintain the conservatives two child limit and that there's no reason why the rape Clause couldn't and I quote operate more fairly we also heard Anna sar's thoughts on the Scottish government's focus on creating a strong social security system when he suggested and I quote again we have been very much a social policy Parliament rather than an economic policy Parliament I think Ros Foy spoke for many of us when she described this as a dismaying lack of vision from any incoming labor government certainly PA I'm very I'm very grateful to governor secr for taking intervention I wonder if she could explain to the chamber why she said in April of 2019 to the times and I quote it's not her policy to alleviate the two child cap and indeed that she has not advocated the government mitigating the two child cap and taking the action that she has called us on cabinet secretary well there's the irony I should not only mitigate against the Tories but I should mitigate against the labor party as well what a sad indictment of where Scottish labor are now on but I will come on to the mitigation me method in due course presiding officer it seems that bere of any social justice policies the labor party have just simply given up on tackling poverty this government has been consistent in its opposition to the two child limit since its Inception in 2017 and has repeatedly called on the UK government to abolish it this policy purposely targets vulnerable children and the dwp's own analysis estimates that it is currently impacting around 1.5 million children in the UK the House of Commons Library tells us it has affected 80,000 children in Scotland over the past 12 months alone and has cost Scottish families in the region of 341 million in benefit since its Inception the tail poverty Action Group analysis found removing the two child limit would pull 250,000 children across the UK out of poverty and a further 850,000 children would be in less deep poverty presiding officer it's clear this policy severely impacts children and it is punishing children because their parents are on low incomes it can not be right to limit the financial support available to Children simply because they have two or more siblings now there are calls from other parties for the Scottish government to mitigate the two chil cap however we do not have the powers to remove this policy at source so while Universal Credit and child tax credits remain reserved to Westminster this is the situation we are in even if Financial mitigation was possible the two child limit and Associated ratee Clause would still be applied by the UK government but the Scottish government should not have to spend its fixed budget rectifying the UK government's failures we're already spending 130 million pound per year to directly mitigate some of the UK government's benefit Cuts such as bedroom tax and the benefit cap over the last six years we've invested 733 million pound to directly mitigate UK government policies money which could have been spent on services like health education transport or on further ambitious anti-poverty measures or paid for 2,000 band five nurses each single year that is the price of staying in this Union I'm grateful to the cabinet secretary her policy today is calling on UK government to find £300 million for what the S&P are calling for where is she suggesting UK ministers find that cabinet secretary I can assure Miles Briggs I am coming to that as well presiding officer I do have one but of many solutions that I'm sure sure we will find in this debate today this of course also doesn't include our investment in the game-changing Scottish child payment which we introduced to support families affected by the utter inadequacy of Universal Credit by the end of this financial year we'll have spent more than 700 million pound on the Scottish child payment Professor Danny dling from the University of Oxford recently commended the Scottish child payment as having delivered I quote the biggest fall in child poverty anywhere in Europe for at least 40 years now we've made it clear in our program for government that we are committed to reducing child poverty it is therefore ging that the impact of our investment is lessened because of the policies of the UK government now we estimate 90,000 fewer children will live in relative in absolute poverty this year because of the Scottish government's policies with poverty levels 9 percentage points lower than they would have been without Scottish government benefits the latest poverty statistics we published in March Mar show that the Scottish child poverty rates continue to be around 6 percentage points lower than the UK average with the actions of this government expected to increase that Gap still further the presiding officer is of course challenge poverty week how much easier it would be to challenge poverty in Scotland if it not were for the punitive policy measures imposed by the UK government such as the two child limit now it's clear that this government has a very different priority to the current UK government or indeed it would seem any future UK government our priority is supporting Children and Families out of poverty surely everyone in this chamber can agree that the UK government's approach to child poverty is severely lacking and this is perfectly captured in their failure to remove the two child limit presenting officer our efforts are further threatened by the fact that the labor party now seems to have signed up to that long list of Tory policies last year year at Labor Party Conference Anis saror said that our children's generation won't praise us for halfing child poverty they will ask what we did to eradicate it well I know what this Scottish government has done we're spending 1.4 billion pound since 2018 on mitigation and the Scottish child payment alone but really what exactly can the labor party say they have done when they can't even commit to scrapping the two child cap so let's be very very clear keeping the two child limit and the rate Clause is a choice Labor's Choice the Scottish conservatives Choice as well labor spending pledges are a political choice they claim the financial mess left by the Tories May impede them from doing the right thing well presiding officer let me help both of the parties out on this but particularly the labor party how about stop spending an extraordinary estimated 200 05 billion pound in a trident renewal how about Labor put Barons first not bombs that's exactly the type of political choice that would help us eradicate child poverty if they had the confidence and the courage to do so presiding officer amidst the chaos of K starmer's U-turn the sheer breathtaking hypocrisy of the Scottish labor party has now kicked into action we first had the ridiculous claims by Scottish labor leader that scrapping the policy would spook the markets but then swooped in Jackie Bailey to the rescue who took to the airway to call on this Scottish government to do exactly what our own party said they wouldn't do that we should scrap the cap you couldn't make it up a call from Scottish labor to mitigate against UK labor yeah presiding officer and yet further evidence of this chaotic and hypocritical position we've got the labor party and its Amendment today I have to say I was a bit dumbfounded when I read it last night presiding officer they ask us to welcome their proposals for a new deal for working people so for the record presiding officer I do the problem is that Kei starmer doesn't after an avalanche of u-turns this summer the labor leader ripped up the plans promises to raise statutary sick pay and extended to the self-employed they're gone a complete ban on zero hour contracts that's gone too and presiding officer quite frankly the promise to raise the minimum wage looks a bit dubious when the labor leader has diluted it from15 an hour to well we'll see what happens next week next month later this week oh dear exactly Mr aain I no wonder you're worried I would be worried too Mr aain if I were you later this week labor members will be attending their Party Conference a vote will take place on these hollowed out policy plans so what exactly is Anna Star War's position is he planning to back his party's Amendment today but then head to to Liverpool to improve a complete u-turn on those plans we on these benches and in this Scottish government remain committed to strengthening workers rights now it's very clear that more needs to be done and I appreciate that Scottish labor are finding this uncomfortable presiding officer but maybe they should just listen and learn from a government that is taking action to tackle child poverty but it is very clear certainly Carol Moran uh thank you I really appreciate the cabinet secretary taking an intervention I I'm just really interested to know what discussions you have had with the first Minister about the u-turns around school muls in in schools H and I I wonder if you could discuss with us how often you've discussed that with the minister with first Minister through the through the Cher cabinet secretary and indeed presiding officer there had been a U-turn I would have discussed it but there has not and therefore there's been no need to have that conversation presiding officer it's clear more than ever that the only route to a fairer and a more equal future here we go yes I'm going to give you another example Mr oain of how you can take this forward is with Independence we simply cannot afford to be Shackled to a Westminster system that is driving more children into poverty one of the highest levels of income inequality in Europe and the highest poverty rates in Northwest Europe presiding officer the two child limit is just one policy impacting on the financial support available to struggling families there are many more that we could hold a debate on in this Parliament but that's exactly why I have written to the UK working penion Secretary of State calling for the UK government to establish an Essentials guarantee to ensure people receive sufficient support to help them with everyday items such as food transport and energy now an early step towards this this would be scrapping the two- to limit and linking the level of Social Security support with the needs of families and that's why this government calls on colleagues from across the chamber to support our calls for the UK government to make the right first step and scrap the two child limit with immediate effect ensuring that our most vulnerable families receive aort they entitled to and I move the motion in my name thank you cabinet secret I can advise the chamber there is um a bit of time in hand therefore and there should be time to recompense members who are taking interventions H all the more reason therefore for interventions not to be shouted from a sedentary uh position I now call on Miles Briggs to speak to and move Amendment 10716 point2 uh Mr Briggs around 9 minutes thank you thank you Deputy presiding officer and I'm always pleased to be able to debate um welfare in this Parliament I welcome the fact the government's brought forward this debate I think maybe what we have seen is more to do with tomorrow's byelection than actually the government wanted to have a proper debate on this and it is hard no can I make some progress first maybe happy to take you in later um and I think it is hard when you think of any UK government in recent his history perhaps the governments of the first and second second world wars which face such huge economic challenges to see what the UK government has faced from The Fallout and consequences of the global financial crisis the co 19 pandemic and the global energy and cost of living crisis this is the backdrop um for difficult spending decisions which the UK government have had to take over the last decade and which will we have to take in the future years ahead and ministers here have often outlined to opposition parties the very same calculations which they have to take when deciding how to spend vital Public Services the UK government has a duty to manage the public finances carefully for future generations and that has meant difficult Decisions by UK ministers to control level of public spending that includes the welfare budget as well now yes happy to Kate Forbes has talked a lot about duties and I thought might made my question more topical because his prime minister today has talked about the importance of family why do the Tories think that a third child is of less value and less entitled to support than a first child that was not the case as as the member clearly knows this policy is about fairness for Working Families as well all amilies having to take difficult decisions and there is I believe a political consensus in helping parents into work which should be a government priority that requires a balanced system that provides strong work incentives and supports those who need it but ensures fairness in our taxation system for all Working Families in this country now the cabinet secretary did not mention today but it is a fact that the UK government has provided over 94 billion pounds in direct support to help families during the cost of living crisis the overall approach by the UK government is evidenced by the fact that between 2016 and 2022 the number of people in couples with children in employment has increased by 372,000 Across the UK 2.7% increase in employment rate for that group now presiding officer it is right that government recognizes that some claimants are not able to make the same choices about the number of children in their family that is why reforms have been progressed by UK ministers they have listened and they've brought forward exceptions to protect certain groups and that is why many of us have argued and worked constructively with ministers to make that case and to make sure these changes are brought forward child benefit can be paid to all children plus the additional amount in child tax credit or indeed Universal Credit for any qualifying disabled child or qualifying disabled young person and it is important to knowe again that the cabinet secretary didn't want to highlight the fact that additional help for eligible child care costs through working tax credit and Universal Credit is available regardless of of the total number of children in a household the reduction in Universal Credit taper rate and the £500 increase to work allowance in addition to the normal benefit uprating alongside the landmark Kickstart and restart schemes demonstrates a focus on supporting families to move into Progressive work presiding officer a critical issue which I know many families continue to face is the significant challenge around the availability and accessibility of affordable child care and this is clearly impacting on many parents' decisions to take up paid work or the ability of many to increase their working hours I know from constituents who' have contacted me about this that finding Child Care is becoming more and more difficult with families finding less flexibility not more to take up work and training opportunities and the failure of S&P and green ministers to deliver on the Scottish government's own policy of 1140 hours of funded early Early Learning and child care for years three and four year olds is not helping to provide that opportunity for people to access the child care they need to take up employment or training and as the national day nurseries Association have warned just today it has emerged that childcare businesses in around a third of local Authority areas have begun this academic year without knowing how much they're being paid for funded places today we could have debated that crisis facing our Nursery sector and the fact that just three of Scotland's 32 local authorities are actually increasing Early Learning child care entitlement presiding officer I have as I have said there is a political consensus that the most suitable way to lift children out of poverty is supporting parents into Progressive work wherever possible and children living in workless households are approximately five times more likely to be in poverty than those living in households where all adults are working I think that's a consensus we should work together on to find Solutions yeah take k mo I thank member for taking an intervention oh thank the M for taking intervention I wonder if the if he can on on those benches accept that the Westminster conservative government approach to benefits means that many families find it difficult to make make sense of the DWP and to actually take take part in um the the processes that there for them to to get their the benefits and then move on to work mil I'm always for discussions both in the DWP but also Social Security Scotland how we simplify access to benefits I think that's something both departments need to to look up and take up as a Cabinet secretary saying as well is important but the UK government have continued to take action to help families with the cost of living for example the national living wage um that is set to increase to at least £1 an hour from next April this increase will will benefit 2 million people of the lowest paid workers in our country and I'd like to make some progress I've only got a few minutes left I'll maybe see later on recent S&P Green Cuts for example though to employability schemes are continuing to make that problematic for many families trying to seek that support now the UK government has consistently said that the best way to support people's living standards is through good work better skills and higher wages and getting people into sustainable employment needs to be key priority for both governments working together I will do cabinet secret I'm grateful to to the member I very much enjoyed his speech today on childcare employability but I wonder if we could get back to the point of the motion and he could just tell the chamber whether he thinks a woman having to admit a rape is a fair thing or not in our society as I've said these are difficult decisions and governments have had to take them the cabinet secretary has also got that weal think about but the failure of this government is what this parliament's responsible for and we have seen the failure as we've heard already for the roll out of free School meals or the ability of local authorities to adequately fund Child Care Provisions or the scandal of the record number of children living in tempor accommodation in Scotland today that is this government's record and it's one maybe the cabinet secretary needs to start debating more often than accusing others now S&P green ministers demand to know from opposition parties where additional spending commitments will come from cabinet secretary today seems to think that the defense budget is the one she would Target but where is 300 million pounds coming from the cabinet secretary just saying not SC scrapping Trident that's student politics it's not about how we deliver for the people of this country the Scottish government have the largest budget in the settlement they have received the largest in the history of devolution the Scottish government have the powers to create new benefits I no I'm coming to my con inclusion there Scottish government have the ability to top up Reserve benefits if they wish and we as a parliament have the opportunity to decide where we want to change welfare policies Powers over welfare and over taxation to pay for these decisions were demanded and transferred precisely so that our Scottish Parliament and Scottish governments could make different choices if the Scottish government of the day so wanted that is why recent polling conducted by ug govern and published in July found that 60% of respondents agreed that the two child limit on the number of children parents can claim should be kept in fact 53% of respondents here in Scotland agreed as well presiding officer as I said at the start of this debate governments here in Edinburgh Cardiff and London face difficult spending decisions as future decisions are taken we should all work to make sure our welfare system is fair to both those who need the support and to taxpayers but ultimately that it is also sustainable and I move the amendment in my name thank you thank you Mr bricks I now call on Paul Kan to speak to and move Amendment 10716 point1 around 7 Minutes Mr oain H thank you Deputy presiding officer and in opening opening this debate for Scottish labor I move the amendment in my name we meet this afternoon in the middle of challenge poverty week and as I have said before in this chamber there are few issues as important as tackling poverty and it should be the focus of far more of our time in this place particularly in terms of how we use the powers of this Parliament to take take action the government has chosen to bring a very limited debate today of course on a very pernicious part of the Universal Credit system which of course it is entitled to do but I believe given it is challenged poverty week given the scope of that week the government could have used their time to have a much wider debate about all of the roots and facets of poverty and how we use our Collective energies far more in tackling it the government has chosen not to do that so perhaps it is more interested in the political context in which we meet today rather than in a moment rather in the wide ranging constructive debate we could be having about challenging poverty in communities across Scotland and indeed their own record in that regard I'll give way to well the member quite rightly talks about poverty being quite wide Peter Kelly of the poverty Alliance has described the benefit cap as and I quote the worst of the tor's welfare reforms so how does it feel for labor to be supporting the worst of the Tory welfare reforms Paul King thank you uh presiding office I'm coming on to speak about why Universal Credit doesn't work and why Universal Credit needs to be fundamentally reformed and we need to see wide ranging change because it isn't helping people it is failing people so the member is right in her assertion there about the fact that these policies are failing people because the life chances of all of our people are crucial to how we Thrive as a society and as a world and it is clear that we need change of approach at UK level and at Scottish level to lift more people out of poverty presiding officer Scottish Leber campaigned against the introduction of the two child limit and we continue to oppose it along with the cruel direction of 13 years of this Tori government a Tori government which has demonstrated is unfitness to govern through the financial chaos that Unleashed on the country last year driving more and more people into poverty and given the further chaos including the agulation of L trust and their acolytes this week in Manchester it is clear that they have learned nothing and they take no responsibility for their actions so the next Labor government will fundamentally reform Universal Credit ensuring that it actually provides a proper safety net for those who need it I'll give way to Bob Bob Doris I thank Paul for giving away I'm really interested in the labor Amendment it talks about the New Deal for for working people a lot of reasonable things I absolutely agree with in relation to that we talk about review of Universal Credit and in this chamber previously I think Mr Mr Amara said the two child limit had to stay until that review is complete so I get clarity today as to whether the labor position is they will abolish the the two limit immediately or do we have to see K to the long grass for a Universal Credit review that's Clarity I need this afternoon pa okay well I thank Mr Doris for his intervention and for his supportive comments in terms of the new deal for working people I hope he might convince his front bench to to back that Amendment and to back those proposals but I I don't recall using that language I'll need to check the record I'm not sure that's what Mr Mara and I said what we have said we are committed to is a fundamental reform of Universal Credit of all parts of the system to ensure that it works for people and to ensure that we remove those punitive um methods from it uh aor government if you would allow me to make some progress I will give way to cab secretary in a moment um the next Labor government as I have said is fundamentally committed to reforming Universal Credit um because the current system isn't working and we do need wide ranging reform and it's not just about changing some of the policies some social security policies it is about changing the whole system because fundamental change is what labor does when it's in power I'll give way the cabinet secretary cabinet secretary grateful to the member for the opportunity to to just give him another opportunity to answer Mr dory's questions because he doesn't we don't need a review to know if the twoa cat's a bad thing or not I think we all agree it's a bad thing so would the UK labor party actually then Implement a policy that scraps it don't wait in a review because you don't need to the member does not need to wait in review nor does his party to know that this is a bad thing Paul I have said that this policy is a percious policy but what I am committed to and what the labor party is committed to is looking to every part of the Universal Credit system and ensuring that it works now the cabinet actually wants to roll her eyes but if she doesn't want to listen to the fact that we need to reform fundamentally Universal Credit and that will take time then that's up to her wrong presiding officer I am proud that the previous UK labor government lifted 2 million children and pensioners out of poverty that includes 2,000 children in Scotland alone how did we do that through a new social contract that included the national minimum wage child benefit and tax credits and it is clear that this level of change is what we need now to tackle poverty across Scotland and the UK because things have got so much worse since then the Joseph Round Tree foundation's annual state of the nation report highlighted just two days ago that the number of Scots still living in poverty is over 1 million the level of deep poverty is on the rise a just shy of half a million and on child poverty specifically 24% of children are living in poverty after housing costs under the Tois and the FNP and equality and poverty have soared there are 40,000 more children in poverty in Scotland compared to a decade ago and again we are not seeing the scale of action required our Amendment outlines the New Deal for working people the importance of ensuring that that new deal is there to lift people out of poverty because an estimated two-thirds of children in poverty live in working households 60% of families impacted by the two cap are in work 10% of all employees in Scotland are stuck on low pay and 72% of that group are women so that is why the New Deal for working people would be transformative and it was endorsed by the TU we heard derision from the cabinet secretary derision of a a document and a policy backed by the trades Union Congress because what is it going to do it's going to ban Zer contracts Outlaw fire and rehire practices and raise the minimum wage to aing wage in order to tackle insecure work and make sure that work pays as a key route to ending poverty indeed the TU called it the biggest upgrade in workers rights in a generation so I do hope the government will be able to support uh a document and a policy supported by the TU today and back our Amendment yes cabinet SEC for once again for for the member to to to give me the opportunity to say we will back the amendment tonight would K starmer backk it though because that's where I think he's got a difficulty not with these Benes but actually UK labor leadership Paul against I'm not entirely sure what the cabinet Secret is driving at Angela rer k starma in conjunction with the TU this document endorsed by the TU he will back to the letter this policy outlined which we will deliver which we will deliver in government so I have no idea what the cabinet secretary is driving at in her contribution today so let's be clear presiding officer this is a transformative opportunity to raise people out of poverty wages and into secure work because we know that the SNP haven't got the best track record when it comes to things like paying the living wage in government contracts or indeed using Zer contracts uh to recruit campaigners and just a few weeks ago they abandoned the parental transition fund of up to15 million a year to tackle the financial barriers faced by parents who want to enter the labor market so no doubt again in this debate today here about if only we had more Powers things would be better if only Independence was here things would be better but perhaps they ought to explain firstly why they're not using the peers that they have and it's not just me who is saying that the Joseph rree Foundation again highlighted this week that simply complaining about the powers you do not have quote is to deny its direct responsibilities for things like employability Economic Development skills and so on and if they don't want to listen to the Jose of brry foundation then maybe they should listen to their own poverty inequality commission which in May 23 said in relation to the child poverty deliver Del delivery plan they are concerned that it does not seem to have the necessary Clarity or sense of urgency about delivery of their actions so presiding officer to conclude it is time for fundamental reform of Universal Credit it is time for a new deal for working people to drive up wages and standards and left people out of poverty and it is time to move on from two failing governments and deliver real change for people across Scotland and the United Kingdom thank you Mr K and I now call on Alex go Hamilton thank you very much presiding office and before I start can I express my sincere apologies for my late arrival I was unavoidably detained um presiding officer the um author Andrew Horowitz once wrote that childhood after all is the first precious coin that poverty steals from a child in Scotland today that statement is only too accurate and at its heart today's debate is about poverty and more specifically child poverty over 1 million people and one point one in four children live in poverty in Scotland today that's one in four that's around 250,000 of them in two in 2023 in one of the wealthiest Nations on Earth that figure is unacceptable it's outrageous it's all the more shameful then when you note that 68% of children in living who are living in poverty are from working households 29% of children live with a disabled family member it has been five years since the child poverty act set that Target of fewer than 18% of children living in relative poverty by 2024 but the Joseph rree Foundation reminds us that that reduction Target will be unlikely to be met in in their words without significant ific additional Scottish government action presiding officer we are on the eve of that deadline and we are nowhere numerous Studies have found that children who grow up in poverty experien many disadvantages that can have a negative impact on their health and significant social consequences these effects are felt both during childhood and into adulthood I saw this impact with my own eyes during the decade I spent working with disadvantaged young people and I see it today in my own constituency poverty is affecting children health education and even their cognitive development it is an adverse childhood experience and presiding officer every child in Scotland should have the right to safety to warmth to a roof over their head and food in their belly it is the duty of this chamber and this government to do absolutely everything in its power to alleviate this crisis and it is a crisis and to move forwards to a Scotland free of child poverty as soon as is humanly possible now let me be clear from the outset liberal Democrats opposed the two child benefit cap we have always opposed the two child benefit cap we opposed it when it was introduced by the conservative government in 2017 and we absolutely oppose it now it is unfair it's unjust and it is an illiberal policy the child poverty Action Group has called it one of the biggest drivers of rising child poverty they say that removing it across the UK would immediately pull 250,000 children out of poverty overnight and take 850,000 children out of deep poverty deep poverty 21st century Britain we're talking about but we must also hold this SNP green government to account for their own failures when it comes to Social Security in Scotland I will take an intervention from Bob Bob Doris for for give given way um does Mr Hamilton agree with me that axing the two cap and the rape Clause does not have to wait for review of Universal Credit it should happen as speedily as possible checked official report Mr rain's position was indeed a review of Universal Credit First certainly my interpretation of it what's the view of the liberal Democrats Alex SCH Hamilton I would support its abolition today I think it's a moral imperative that we rid ourselves of this abhorent policy so I absolutely agree with the sentiment expressed by Bob Doris and the child um but we right now those applying for adult disability payment in Scotland are facing longer waights in many cases than they did under the DWP system officer when someone who is in receipt of pip and living in Scotland reports a change in circumstances they are currently forced to wait 3 months to be moved over and only then do social security Scotland start work on their change in circumstances if during that time as is often the case their condition worsens and they are entitled to a high rate they are missing out for that period something that should happen at the touch of a button is taking months and denying disabled people the support they need when they need it most this l be the incompetence of the Scottish government in removing the dedicated social security minister to properly oversee this transition at its most critical juncture and this government promised fairness respect and dignity we all voted for that in the new Social Security Arrangement instead people are being left to face uncertainty for months while a decision is being made and they wait sometimes in poverty we fought for more powers for this Parliament but it's taking far too long for the Scottish government to get itself ready leaving people with the DWP for over a decade that's not good enough for families across Scotland some of the most vulnerable families across Scotland and this week it was revealed that the government have quietly scrapped a key plank of their anti-poverty strategy it was only last year that ministers pledged to create a new parental transition fund to tackle the financial barriers faced by parents trying to get into work Charan Summerville has now said that it would in her quotes sorry in her words would not be possible to deliver and that it has run its course as a concept presiding officer this scheme was welcomed how well CET secretary grateful H to the member to to just point out the opportunity about why it can't work is because of the current powers and the fact that if we put something like this in place reserved benefits will therefore be impacted and people would not find themselves any better off so it's the practicalities of devolved and reserved that has made us have to look again at different wayes so so please um we need to discuss this but we need to discuss the genuine reasons why we've had to move on and that's implications on reserve benefits Alex go Hamilton so but the cabinet secretary will recognize the Deep disappointment that this has created that this this was a scheme that was recommended by welcomed and recommended both by Charities and those who lived in experience of poty and the Joseph R rry foundation in full knowledge of the facts has called that uh that U-turn that move deeply concerning it's clear then I will Martin Whitfield if I've got time yes I'm I'm very grateful to Alex Kohan want to give away and on that very point it was parents themselves who expressed the desire and need for this fund and it seems beyond belief that the Scottish government would commit to something that subsequently turns out that they don't in fact have the power to deal with that seems to be promising something before they understand what they're being asked Hol SC hton and I'm very grateful for Martin whitfield's intervention and given the length of time that we've had to sort of understand the ecosystem of the benefits that we have in control over in this country is astonishing that they would give parents that false hope in that way it is clear that in this this is a government that talks a good game on supporting those least well off but when push comes to shove they fall well below par and often fail to deliver Scottish liberal Democrats want to get the Scottish Social Security System working faster and with the dignity that was promised the dignity and I say again that we all in this place Place voted for we want to make Child Care much more flexible and accessible both families and work and those who want to attend to the labor market but are a considerable distance from it and cannot access things like evening training opportunities for want of basic child care we want to introduce a nursery premium for children in deprived areas and introduce a national legal entitlement to youth work for every child in Scotland presiding office of liberal Democrats believe in a Scotland that supports the most vulnerable people in our society we want every to be able to learn to grow and to play securing the knowledge that there will always be food in the table and in a warm safe space to call their home that should be the case for every child in this country and we must All In This Place Endeavor to make it so thank you very much thank you Mr go Hamilton we will now move to the open part of the debate and we still have some time in hand members will be pleased to hear in terms of the impressive number of interventions we've already witnessed this afternoon and I call Kevin Stuart to be followed by Ros MCO Mr Stuart uh thank you very much presiding officer and let's look at the impact that the two child benefit cap had in Scotland in 2022 23 8,936 children lived in households where benefits were reduced due to the two child benefit cap the cap was directly applied to 32,610 cap deprived households of 95.7 million in Social Security and that cap put 20,000 children in poverty after housing costs now these are not Scottish government figures uh they come directly from the House of Commons library but these are not figures these are children families people impoverished by the two child cap and after 13 years of brutal t aity a hard brexit that Scotland never voted for and the horrors of the economically illiterate trust budget people and communities are facing real hardship and now we know that the labor party is only interesting interested in entrenching cruel to T policies not abolishing them and it's very clear at this point that I will on a minute uh is very clear at this point that labor policy is no different from that of the Tories and I will give way to Mr Mara Michael Mara I'm I'm sorry that Mr Stuart seems to have missed the other speeches in the debate labor is committed to a fundamental review of Universal Credit it couldn't be more starkly different from the Tory uh position of maintaining the the benit caps and the position that they had take at the moment it's a fundamental review to change the way system so it can deliver for the poorest people in this country Kevin Stuart that is not what Kier starmer has said about the two child cap he has said um that H they will look at it and they will look to see what the finances are like after the Tories leave power if labor manages to take power that is now what we wants to see what we want to see is is a a policy which which is barbaric uh we want the end to that immediately now I don't think it's beyond the width of the labor party to say in the hearing now that they want rid of that policy now they say they think it's unfair let's get rid of it now but let's be clear about all of this because this is the price of Westminster control uh the SNP the Scottish government is absolutely clear we oppose the policy in every form and will continue to demand its abolition and I hope that all like-minded members from across the chamber will back the Scottish government motion today and I also hope that members will take cognizance of the experts on this issue uh Miss Forbes earlier on quoted uh Peter Kelly of the poverty Alliance let me add to his quote he said that the two child limit in the benefit cap represent the worst of the wealth reforms of the last 13 years any politician that claims to care about poverty about increasing Food Bank use about the well-being of kids needs to commit to scrap this terrible policy action for children have said any government serious about tackling child poverty will eventually have to confront the cruel reality of the two child limit a policy designed to actively stop poor children receiving assistance to meet their MO minimum needs and the child poverty Action Group in Scotland made clear the two child limit one of the most brutal policies of our times affect over 880,000 children in Scotland alone pushing up to 15,000 into poverty across the UK one in 10 children are affected and they said all political leaders must commit to scrapping it and what have the politicians said Anna saror has himself previously said of the Tories that this is the party that introduced the rape clause which is a horrific piece of legislation within their welfare reforms where is that strength of feeling now why do we have to wait for some review uh and how long will that review be where where is that strength of feeling now and why will Anna sarar and Scottish labor not commit to that abolition right now the Scottish government has taken action on tackling poverty uh an estimated 90,000 children have been lifted out of poverty uh because of SNP policies uh and last year over three billion pounds was invested across a range of programs targeted at low-income households with 1.25 billion directly benefiting children through interventions like the historic child payment I I've got no time I'm afraid Mr Whitfield uh by PRI prioritizing tackling poverty the government here is not only addressing the cost of living crisis but is of course also addressing the cost of the Union crisis as well imagine what we could be a could have been achieved if Scotland did not have to pay for and mitigate the Westminster mistakes Chris B of the Joseph rry Foundation recently told the social justice and Social Security committee our social security system in the UK at the minute is fundamentally inadequate people are hungry in this country because of it the UK government bear an enormous amount of responsibility for that this Parliament has stepped into some of that space with good things like the Scottish child payment that is a good thing uh we know uh that a labor government will be no different from a t one in this issue proven today starmer has told us so and Anna saror has no option but to G agree well I don't uh in my opinion it's time for us to put a halt uh to the cost of the Union policies that impact so harshly on our children it's time for us to control all of the secur security social security Powers here it's time for Independence thank you presiding officer thank you Mr Stuart I now call Ros MCO to be followed by Kate Forbes Miss MCO thank you Deputy presiding officer I'd like to start by noting the amendment to the motion from my colleague Miles Briggs and it calls on the Scottish Parliament to focus on devolved issues such as the roll out of benefits through Social Security Scotland and other policies that will ultimately benefit Scottish children and it's to that that I'd like to make my comments no surprise there the people of Scotland are looking for this Parliament to use its time to debate issues that are affecting them right now like delivering on the promise or raising attainment in our schools or following through on School meals for its primary pupils or funding free breakfasts like fixing the failing 1140 hours free child care provision or how about providing local authorities with the funding promised for digital devices only one in 10 school children have received their free device presiding officer 90% of Scottish children don't have the laptop or tablet pledged pre-election and some were cynical than I might think that was blatant politicking I'm not taking any interventions I'm going to get my points across thank you based on a conversation I'd overheard earlier statistically just to advise the national average of children per household in the UK is 1.7 and of course that equates to two children children and I'll just leave that there currently the SNP and greens as the parties in government in Scotland can use the extensive devolved powers to make changes that they believe are pertinent to Scotland in other words make choices this government has chosen to spend over 732 33 million to inart top up the Scottish child payment on top of the UK government's additional support and exemptions for the most vulnerable in society don't look now but that could be Devolution at work we all know that government is about making choices that we think will make positive differences to people's lives not many of them are easy they are mostly difficult choices which highlight a direction of travel and it's easy to promise everything but when it comes to delivery we find it's not possible or the budget won't allow it we should be grown up about the fact and stand by our decisions on how we choose to spend taxpayers money now I note the comments from the cabinet secretary on focus on children and choices and I'm going to continue on that theme the SNP government could have provided our children with the best and most rewarding route out of poverty which is a first class education system but we know that they've all but abandoned their promise to eliminate the child the property related attainment Gap the former first Minister said to judge her on education the previous Minister for further education higher education and science surely and suo ditched that commitment when in January of this year said in an education system I think it would be exceptionally difficult if not impossible to get to the point of zero but that doesn't mean we stop trying any national five student of modern studies will tell you the way out of poverty is through education education education in 2016 the S SMP widely publicized its dedication to a shared commitment right across education to to close the attainment gap between children from the most and least deprived backgrounds they said it was top priority 7 years later the situation has not improved it's just not good enough and we could be debating that today or how about the SNP government could have delivered on their promise for free breakfasts and lunches to all primary one to seven pupils in 2020 the deputy first Minister then Deputy first Minister John SNY said if the party retains power after the Hollywood election in May it would fund free breakfast and lunches for all children primary 1 to 7 and it would be implemented from August 22 making Scotland the first nation in the UK to offer Universal pre free Primary School meals how laudable by August 22 the promise had been broken the first Minister announced in the program for government that they would deliver free School meals to all pupils in primaries 1 to 5 and to work with KLA in the coming year to prepare the expansion of free Cod meals for six primary six and seven during 2026 add this to the fact that Scotland has the lowest level of school breakfast provision of all the four UK nations with 41% of schools in Scotland having no breakfast provision it's just not good enough and we could be debating that today or how about the Scottish government could have made the investment required to ensure that the delivery of the promise was on track and deliverable in the promised time scales the promised oversight board does not believe that that delivering the original aims of plan 2124 is realistic within the time frame and they state that Scotland does not yet have a single route map to 2030 in place a point the former first Minister agreed with me on in this chamber the youngest the most vulnerable and the most promising of our society here in Scotland are being promised so much but the SNP have chosen to disregard these pledges with no one taking any responsibility for these choices and instead resorting to using children in poverty for obvious political gain and it is just not good enough and we should certainly be I'm not taking interventions I'm nearly nearly finished presiding officer without sound to sound to cliche Scotland's children are the future of Scotland we have a duty to provide them with the greatest opportunities and this is not doing that for nothing nothing more than political Tom fery today we do them a disservice and we should be ashamed thank you thank you m MCO I now call point of order Kevin Stewart um I seek your guidance presiding officer because this is um a motion that has been brought for forward today around about the two child cap it is very specific this motion I recognize that the opposition parties uh don't really want to talk about this um and I deviate and I'm happy to debate any issue but I seek your guidance around about the motion itself and the fact that there is so much deviation in the chamber in this debate I thank Mr Stuart for his contribution uh I think Mr sh needs to look at not simply the motion but the Amendments that were accepted by the presiding officer uh and I think you'll find the answers that he seeks there um I call Kate Forbes to be followed by Carol moin Miss Forbes H thank you presiding officer I'm the oldest of four children being one of four was great growing up but interestingly enough none of us were treated as more or less important or more or less entitled to support by virtue of our position being born that would of course be utterly bizarre and indeed immoral which are exactly the two words I would use to characterize the two child benefit cap in fact I'd add in a few more inexplicable disgraceful abhorent perhaps we're over familiar with references to the two child benefit cap so it's lost some of its initial shock Factor so for clarity the cap means that families are prevented from accessing essential essential weal Fair support for their third or subsequent children so in their time of need a child is essentially abandoned by by the state for one reason and one reason alone the order of their birth so often families seek help because of unforeseen circumstances bereavements relationships breaking down ill health disability caring responsibilities none of those are a child's fault whether they are the oldest or the youngest and all of those scenarios create unimaginable burdens that are far too heavy for any child to Bear but rather than find support and help they're penalized excluded and ignored their families are deprived of essential additional support you often associate government dictates about family sizes with other let's say more authoritarian governments and yet the two child benefit cap is is rooted in the same ideology presiding officer in Scotland we must unite in tackling child poverty I think there have been lots of good debates in this Parliament about the work we need to see to tackle child poverty it's a disgrace in fact it shames us all that in a Land of Plenty children are homeless hungry and cold and that's why the S SMP has done a huge amount of work tackling child poverty introducing the game changer Scottish child payment that matters enormously as H Kevin Stewart said you can talk about figures 990,000 children not living in poverty that would otherwise live in poverty and yet for every child who needs it the difference is profound because in Scotland under the SNP we build child welfare policies on fairness and dignity and yet as surely an Somerville already said yes I will Jeremy Baler Jeremy Baler can I thank um Miss forit for two intervention um in that point that she just made can you then clarify when she was the finance cabinet secretary and that before that Mr swinny why would for fre School m still not being ruled out in Scotland which you both promised the point is they are being ruled out but here's another Point 34 of a billion pounds being spent by this government just to stand still combating UK government policies imagine if all of that was adding value and we didn't need to ensure that the worst atrocities of UK welfare reforms were plunging children into poverty as we speak we continue to spend so much of our time fighting and funding policy decisions imposed on us by a conservative government the tor's two child benefit cap and The Wider welfare policy has driven up to 30,000 children into poverty in Scotland an atrocious Legacy after more than a decade of Tory aity across the UK the two child limit now affects one in 10 children the child poverty action group called that a tragic Milestone you won't see that on the Tory Manifesto for the next election scrapping the policy could lift up to 15,000 children out of poverty at a stroke of a pen who Among Us who Among Us would opt to keep those children in poverty when they could be helped and they could be supported with a simple change of policy well I'll tell you who's opting to do that first of all the conservatives and perhaps you'd expect that but who have thought labor would choose to continue the two child cap for as long as it takes them to do a review of what we already know is wrong yeah Mich Mara I I I hear um the calls for for urgency from across our does you realize that we are perhaps 14 months away from a general election and actually her government could mitigate this immoral situation now in her own words K Forbes the member rais is a vitally important point which is why 3/4 of a billion pounds is currently being spent on mitigations but he fails to recognize the3 billion that is being spent right now supporting families and households across Scotland who are facing the challenges around cost of living and around poverty and the Scottish child payment is directly ensuring that 90,000 children are not in poverty labor are supposedly Progressive fair and yet they are content to at very least delay Michael Mara talks about let's say 14 months to the next election he's suggesting what up to another year 2 years 3 years on top of that whilst you do a review until at some point that's not a great offer to the Scottish people the bottom line presiding officer is this for families in need it doesn't matter whether it's a Tory government or a labor government the benefit cap will still apply and that presiding officer is the reason why it will only ever be the S SMP and it will only ever be the Scottish Parliament which will stand up for every Scot young and old thank you Miss Forbes I now call Carol mohin to be followed by Marie mcir Miss mohin thank you presiding officer I want to be clear the two child limit is a cruel damaging and appalling T policy which I fully oppose I agree that it is a punitive measure which targets Working Families kills hope and aspiration and it has no place in the modern Progressive society that we want to create I have made it clear before and make it clear once again that I deplore the Tori government's attack on workingclass people they are the friends of the Rich and show no interest in redistributing wealth to those most in need and sadly presiding officer the Tor Amendment today just further highlights their ignorance to the damage they they have caused to both people people's lives and the economy because of the incompetence of this toy government any incoming labor government would have to analyze the financial position left by the toies which will undoubtedly be extremely challenging but I and I know many others all on these benches will be chapping on the doors and calling for this policy along with many of the other cruel welfare policies to be removed I take Kevin Kev I thank M M for giving way Pres officer um and uh you know I I get the fact that uh labor are going to have to look at the finances however um the shadow defense secretary has committed uh the the billions upon billions of pounds spent spending on Trident why can labor not do the same thing with this two child benefit cap Ken M uh thank you thank you H to the member for that intervention can I be absolutely honest I don't want to play this game I want us to have a discussion about how we change the lives of people who are living in poverty in this debate labor have made it clear that they will be doing all that they can to review these Dreadful cruel welfare policies and bring in proper welfare for people and can I just move on and say that despite what the cabinet secretary what the backbenchers are saying they are unable to accept that labor has a strong track record record of lifting people including many children out of poverty and I I have every confidence that they will do it again I take I'll take an intervention from Member Mar m thank you Miss Morin I just want to know what discussions uh labor have had with Rape Crisis Scotland um to see how we can make the rape Clause fairer car M thank you well I I think we're debating the fact that the rate Clause is absolutely not fair so um you know that would be my first point you know it's a given um I I I I personally I'm not aware at what level the the party have but I have made my position absolutely clear that this Clause should should go and that when a labor government comes to power and a labor government is coming then we will be making changes that make people's lives easier presiding officer I want to now turn to the SNP government um who have brought this motion forward today and I'm ke like others to outline some of of the context surrounding today's debate just this week we learned from the Joseph rry Foundation that one in 10 Scots live in very deep poverty making up almost half of all those living in po poverty the same report rightly critical of the UK government rightly critical of the UK government maintains that the Scottish government could go much further and I agree this should be the focus of today's debate what can this place do right here right now but this government choose not to do that the labor benches do not think the current UK government is setting a bar that anyone should be looking to compete itself to do those on the government's back benches I hope you don't we should be far exceeding the performance of a conservative government that has imposed austerity on our communities wrecked the economy and hindered growth the prominence of poverty particularly child poverty in Scotland is devastating and I hear the m members talking about that and it remains extremely prominent on this SNP government's watch and I have often ask my sweat self why do the back benchers not challenge their leadership to go further that's the ask that I have is that we a good government comes from the pressure of those behind it is it merely doing a bit better than the Tories is that enough for the back benches of course John I'm very grateful to Carol Morin for giving way and on the subject of pressure from back benches the front bench in here needs no encouragement to do things such as increasing the Scottish child payment to £25 per week per child that's the the front bench have been prepared to take that particular initiative but Carol mockin has to accept that while this government has acted she is presiding over a labor party that is not acting to alleviate the suffering faced by children and young people in our society today car Mo can I be absolutely clear I do not want to play this game I have given credit many times to the party and government here can I just quote to John swiny to just prove my point the scale of the financial difficulties families are facing greatly outstrips the financial assistant offered by the Scottish government this is a report from save the children this year and it goes on to say there is more the Scottish government must do to protect young children from the impacts of poverty it is the responsibility of all of us including the back benches to push the government to do all that it can in Scottish Labor's Amendment tonight I hope the government Benes I'm going to make I'm going to make progress if you don't mind I'm on six six minutes I just want to say that I'm I I am glad that they are supporting the amendment tonight but I want to make one last point in this challenge poverty week we live in a Scotland children in E St South Asia in my own region are growing up in a Scotland where one and four children are in poverty they are in poverty because of an action and poor decision making from governments both nor no I'm not going to both North and South of the Border members it is our responsibility to take action experts are saying we are not going far enough we are not going far enough communities are saying we are not going far enough it is time for the MP and the toies to listen and act otherwise otherwise you should just immediately make way and and give other parties a chance who will actually deliver not just say they will deliver on policies that will change poverty in this country thank you presiding officer thank you Miss moan I now call Marie mcir to be followed by Maggie Chapman Miss mcir thank you presiding officer I'd I to speak in support of the Scottish government Motion in the name of of charlean Somerville the two policy and its important rape Clause is one of the most disgusting welfare policies to emerge from Westminster it is designed to set families up to fail and deny children the most basic levels of subsistence and support to help them Thrive the perverse nature of rationing the subsistence rates for children has no part in a decent society yet the two main political parties who want to govern at Westminster are planning to keep this approach as part of the welfare state this is not just a policy that lacks compassion but it's also one that fails miserably in achieving the aims the UK government set out it was asserted that his implementation would provide incentives to find more work and influence decisions about having children a three-year research project funded by the nfield foundation looking at the two child limit and the benefit cap found no evidence that either policy meets its behavioral aims and in some cases has had the opposite effect in fact the research instead gather waves of evidence demonstrating that the benefit cap in the two child limit are causing extreme hardship to affected families It's a cruel policy and has been widely condemned by anti-poverty campaigners John Dicky of the child poverty action group describes it as a cruel tax on siblings and he's clear on it punishing impact saying we wouldn't deny a third child NHS care or an education but how is it right to deny children much needed support because of the brothers or sisters they have the two child limit is one of the most brutal policies of our times all this policy does is push more than a million children into poverty or deeper poverty it's time for all Westminster Party leaders to commit to removing the two child limit before more children are harmed the end child poverty Coalition have described the two child policy as one of the biggest drivers of child poverty if this isn't enough to want to scrap it what about its rape Clause one of the most Dreadful pieces of social policy ever imagined labor used to call it immoral and outrageous astonishingly they now talk about making it fairer in gender have said for Force disclosure of sexual violence to gain access to Social Security will retraumatization force disclosure of sexual violence can exacerbate post-traumatic stress disorder and increase a sense of Shame and isolation but instead of a commitment to scrap it from from Westminster we are told that it's here to stay regardless of who forms the next UT UK government if the two policy isn't bad enough there are families in the UK who are hit by a double whammy of the two child policy and the benefit cap fortunately in Scotland we're doing everything we can to mitigate the benefit cap and other cruel UK policy we're making available nearly £84 million a discretionary housing payment and that's 6 9.7 million to mitigate the bedroom tax 6.2 million for the benefit cap and another 7.9 to mitigate other UK welfare Cuts we've also increased the Scottish CH payment to £25 and expanded its eligibility an investment of £45 million helping over 300,000 children across the country it wasn't that long ago that other political parties were just asking to set just a suror on UK welfare policy we're seeing a race to the bottom between the Tories and labor their tough rhetoric is increasing stigma and their social policy agenda gives little hope to families in greatest need Paul the member speaks about little hope would would she accept that um Universal Credit as I outlined in my contribution is fundamentally broken and needs to be reformed in all of its facets which it also accept that New Deal for working people will be a huge Game Changer in terms of people getting into work wellp paid at work and lifting people out of poverty would you acknowledge that Marie MC preferably in the pudding The Institute for Public Policy research points out that UK policy sees Social Security in narrow terms with harmful rhetoric and ill-informed stereotypes conditions the say have enabled the UK to maintain one of the least generous rates of income replacement across the oecd this human policy is heavily contrasted with the dignity fairness and respect approach driving us forward in Scotland no two child policy with the Scottish child payment no aent rape Clause no private sector medical assessments that cause so much pain and humiliation no sanction regime that has caused the cruel death of so many to name just a few important differences in approach it is clear that there is no desire from any of the political parties that aspire to govern at Westminster to bring about change change that brings a real safety net for when life chances require it change that shows a compassion that no child should be left in poverty it's very clear priding officer that change will only come when Scotland is independent thank you Miss mcir I now call Mikie Chapman who's joining us remotely to be followed by Bob Doris Miss Chapman thank you presiding officer six years ago the distinguished academic Professor Jonathan Bradshaw wrote and I quote the two child policy is the worst ever social security policy because it results in unprecedented cuts to the living standards of the poorest children in Britain if the government needed to reduce the deficit almost any other expenditure cut or tax increase would be less damaging the aspiration of the policy to influence fertility is discriminatory and hopeless the exceptions will be unpleasant to operate it is morally odious vindictively conceived and it will not last end quote he was right about everything except so far his final point shamefully it has lasted another Jonathan the labor MP Jonathan Ashworth then Shadow Secretary of State for work and pensions gave an interview to the Daily Mirror earlier this year he agreed with a former Tory welfare minister in describing the two child limit as a vicious policy and said that again I quote the idea that this policy helps move people into work is completely offensive nonsense just a few short weeks later k starma was equally clear why wouldn't he be it's an issue of such moral Clarity agreed by Civil Society by Charities academics unions Faith groups cont stricken Tories themselves and voices from across the spectrum of Sir kier's own party so what did he say we are not changing that policy that this is where the empty politics of focus groups has brought us this is what our children face a fate recognized as morally repugnant yet normalized by both players in sorry in in their cynical game or first past the post let us remind ourselves why both Jonathans were right austerity itself was of course based on a lie propped up by analytical incompetence and feeding upon bigotries are the cruestv of austerity's poison it has failed even in what it set out to do it hasn't reduced public spending in anything but the most trivial and short-term sense for we know that the real costs of the child poverty it created are wide and deep affecting not only those children themselves but their families their communities and Society Beyond those costs are born in relationships and well-being in health and education in employment and economic stability if the architects of austerity thought about child poverty for for no other reason they might have considered its impacts on the economy and public spending far outweighing the petty cash they snatched away it hasn't enabled parents to find work or for ma for the majority who are already employed to work more hours or to receive higher pay in fact as this year's lsse study showed it often heightens the obstacles they face including child care costs time constraints and mental health pressures and it hasn't stopped people from having more than two children again the evidence is there evidence that anyone with a heart could have expected to see families have three or more children for many reasons and in many circumstances storms may come to us all bement or breakdown loss of relationship or livelihood illness or isolation to slam the door on the smallest is neither social nor secure it's barely even human for this policy has real effects though not those it was advertised to bring as we all know too well the two child limit increases child poverty especially for the most vulnerable families it brings with it the old enemies of childhood hunger cold homelessness family debt it punishes women especially lone parents as they struggle going hungry themselves to keep their children warm and fed it violates the most basic human rights including the obligation under the uncrc to give primary consideration to the best interests of the child it breaches Reproductive Rights and blatantly discriminates by religion culture and gender and I'll give way to Martin Whitfield Martin Whitfield I'm very grateful to the member to give way and she's indeed making a very powerful speech particularly around the uncrc would she agree with me that fundamentally the safety net of the social security system is not in any way helped by the current Universal Credit and actually a review of the whole system is actually what the people of the United Kingdom need who seek to rely on it Mikey Chapman I I agree partially with with Martin Wickfield that the Universal Credit is is part of the problem but that's no excuse to delay the scrapping of this obscene immoral policy right now it could be done tomorrow if we so chose to do because we know it undermines healthy relationships by incentivizing separation and discouraging Blended families and its clumsy cynical exceptions including the chilling rape Clause reach new depths of indignity dehumanization and danger there is no more bitter example of the cost the simple human cost of our shackles to Westminster we know that the Scottish child payment is making a difference a real and vital difference to thousands of children's lives but that should be an addition not an attempt to fill the chasm of this deliberate shortfall this conscious cruelty earlier Miles Briggs talked about fairness in taxation and fairness in spending I wonder when he will press his Westminster government to tackle tax avoidance or the obscene profits made at our expense by energy companies during the current cost crisis that money could be used for so much good it shouldn't be poorer families made to pay there are msps here who have spoken out against their party line their party's infatuation with the spiteful policy I thank them but I challenge both them and their silent colleagues to do more we are not here to represent Mondo Man Waiter woman or any other cartoon characters of the spin doctor's stunted imaginations we are here to represent the children of Scotland the families and communities that care for them if we are truly to do so the two child limit cannot last it shall not last thank you thank you Miss Chapman and I now call call Bob Doris to be followed by Martin Whitfield Mr Doris president officer just a few weeks ago I led a members debate in this Parliament seeking to secure cross Party Support to speak with one voice to oppose the deeply oppressive and damag two CH cap and Associated rape Clause I had sought to phrase my motion in such a way to make it a straightforward for colleagues and other parties particularly the labor party to support I was deeply disappointed then that the labor party to an MSP simply did not sign that motion today's scottage government motion is a further opportunity for labor to show movement to bow to pressure and to do the right thing as labor colleagues decide how to vote a decision time today I would refer them to the questions I asked both mik Mara MSP and Paul MSP during that debate I made clear to them the motion I put before Parliament at its heart sought to do something very simple it aimed to put pressure on a UK conservative government that is wed to the rape clause and the two child limit it was an opportunity for labor to join the SNP in defending the 4,000 children in Glasgow and 20,000 children across Scotland pushed into poverty by those UK policies in response to replies Illustrated the confusion and Chaos that has been part of the labor position on this matter for a prolonged period of time Mr okain was asked to rule out the rape cause here's what he said I talk about fundamental reform of UC because that is what I believe in however unfunded spending commitments cannot be made because working people will pay the price W I just asked all I did was ask Mr ran to reject the rape clause in the two shil cap and that was the reply Mr Mara stated I associate myself entirely with the contents of the motion that was the motion I had before Parliament presenting officer there is very little in it if anything at all that I disagree with the challenge that is faced by any incoming Chancellor of the exer in this country is that we have to pay we have the money to be able to pay the bills and Mr Mara is of course in part right the issue is that with the rape CLA and the two child limit the UK conservative government denies the most vulnerable families in Scotland the level of income they require to pay their bills their electricity bills their gas bills their food bills their shopping bills to buy clothes for their children and much more those are the bills that should focus the mind of the UK labor party unfortunately the conclusion that I had to reach then was that UK labor elected representatives in Scotland would rather deny vital support to the most vulnerable citizens than challenge so stammer and we should not be deflected by any chat about Labor reviewing Universal Credit the two CH cap and rape Clause can end now irrespective of any future review of Universal Credit can Michael Mar so I can understand that the that change could be made now by the conservative government does he recognize that it cannot be made now by the labor party does he recognize that Bob Doris I thank Mr Mar for that intervention is actually a really helpful intervention because should there be a future UK labor government they could abolish this within months perhaps even weeks and that commitment has not been given this afternoon by labor can anyone imagine designing a Uki benefit system that identifies need and seeks to support those who clearly have such a need but it effectively also says we'll help you support your first two children but you're on your own with any siblings they simply don't count their needs don't count because at its core that is precisely what the benefits C in two child limit does and it doesn't require a labor review of Universal Credit to reach that position the Scottish government have been clear that any benefit system that operates in such a way is immoral it's unethical the Scottish government have not only condemned such a system we've acted to put in place an alternative dignity ifed system here in Scotland within our devolved competencies and within the constraints of our budgets and the difference has been transformational with the delivery of a gamechanging Scottish child payment we rly rejected any suggestion of a two child limit or a rape Clause we designed a system based in fairness on Dignity and respect that's all we're asking labor to do as well this is Paul would he however accept that are significant challenges in the delivery of Social Security in Scotland not least in terms of the weight times that exist for adult disability payment and indeed challenges with getting the right advice and support for people across Scotland Bob Doris what Mr oain is saying that Social Security Scotland will continue to strive to improve the service offered to people of Scotland based in dignity fairness and respect I'm absolutely happy to confirm that this is not about politics of course it's about people it's about offering vital support to people in their life for families that are really struggling I previously mentioned in this chamber how Glasgow Northwest citizens advice Bureau based in my constituency how they've been helping those impacted by the rape clause and the benefits cap and here is what they told me a bureau supported a loan parent of four children aged between 14 and 4 months who needed help with energy debt and support to progress a child maintenance claim no one plans to be financially to be in financial difficulty the parent found herself in financial difficulty which she separated from her husband and became reliant on Universal Credit and she was entitled to support for only two of her four children glasgo North citizen advice Bureau also assisted another loan parent to four children who ranged from 12 years old to 3 years old the bureau assisted in applying for health related benefits for two of the children who had severe additional support needs the parent had found him himself in financial difficulty when his wife died and he gave up well paid work to care for his children and claiming Universal Credit he was entitled to support for only two of his four children presiding officer imagine experiencing such a bement or a relationship breakdown and facing such severe financial hardship under a UK benefit system not by accident but by Design This is the reality of the two sh limit in practice it's also what the early years of a future UK government are willing to put up with for how long we just don't know today we can however come together as a Scottish Parliament and unite against the current UK system the two CH camp and the rape Clause it must change it must go and it doesn't need to Ral Universal Credit to tell us that it needs a conscience a political will and a determination to act our sap government has that conscience determination and political will hope decision time so will others thank you Mr Doris I now call Martin Whitfield to be followed by clate Stevenson Mr Whitfield I'm very grateful Deputy presiding offic and it is as always a pleasure to follow um Bob B Doris in respect of debates and we find ourselves here during challenge poverty week and I am disappointed that the S SMP government chose a motion so narrow that we couldn't have lorded the work that happens in challenge poverty week and I look to the various amendments to allow that discussion to happen because it is right to hold the Tory government in Westminster to account for their failings for their um choices for their decisions but it is also right to look to the people of Scotland to see what we can do to challenge poverty a week that was launched in 2013 that highlights the Injustice of poverty in Scotland and to show the collective action based on Justice and compassion can create Solutions and I think that that is a fascinating message for this afternoon's debate and this week in particular the asks are where the people of Scotland value their communities where we can be safe and secure in sustainable homes where we can have enough to live in a decent dignified life where you can travel where you need to go and where no one goes hungry and those asks generic as they are they speak to the volume and the challenge that exists around poverty both here in Scotland across the United Kingdom but also actually across the world and we look today in this debate from some members here to a very specific point and they want to labor that point their right to do so it is a political decision but I think it is a missed opportunity in this week not to look to how answers can exist across our Scottish communities to improve the well-being of our children of our young adults of their new families of working people who are working and in poverty a level that we have seen exceed recently and towards our older Generations who need the care and support both of their communities but also of this Scottish government and also of the Westminster government so that they can have a dignified life moving forward I would like i' like to Echo um a a comment that Miles Briggs made about the availability of child care and the information that's become available today about the concern that the private sector has not just of not being able to deliver a Scottish government promise but that in doing so will lead to their um going bankrupt and out of business which will again cause huge problems to families who need that child care to allow people significantly single parent families where again of course significantly it is women to allow them to go to work and I would also like in the short time that I have to Echo Ros McCall's speech about education education um of course a speech made at the University of Southampton one of the great educational institutions back in May 2001 by Tony Blair and I welcome um her acknowledgement that actually education is one of the long-term Solutions but is not one of the long-term causes of poverty in the expectation that our schools that our teachers that the adults that support our young people can solve a problem like poverty is both disingenuous it's unfair and actually is putting um unacceptable pressures on a system that should be there to allow young people to develop to mature so that they can take part um in their future life and um to Echo a previous debate where John swinny intervened on me to have the discussion about the respons posibilities and the obligations that rest with parents and rest with schools and the difference between that but turning more specifically um to the debate that we have had this afternoon and I think it is right to Echo um Carol mck's comments about was there a need for this to be the politically strong debate that um has been brought about because of the phrasing of the original motion and of course that is the choice of the government but to do so I think is disingenuous particularly in this week of all weeks and it's interesting Bob Doris's um contribution and when asked about the provision of the Social Security and he was right to talk about it being a developing and iterative process where people in Scotland hopefully will be dealt with more fairly more equitably let's face it just more kindly by a social security system but then to reflect back some of the other comments why can't that happen now why is it not happening now why can't it happen today and Bob Doris is fully aware of why it can't happen today and I find it again disingenuous that there seems to be a claran call particularly um towards ourselves here and I I I compliment of course I will I thank the member for giving away but I think he's conflating two two opposite things the Scottish government for example started off with 10 Scottish child payment that's now £25 that wasn't about process that was about delivery abolishing the two child cap is not about process it's about delivery and UK labor could do that immediately when elected Martin can I compliment Bob Doris on recognizing the potential privilege that labor has of being the government in Westminster imminently um I deeply hope it would in fact be tomorrow however there is a reality in and that brings me to the the the part that I was going to go on to and I thank Bob Doris for that intervention because there is something about a difference between a delivery and a promise um and the fact remains that I I hope we can all agree that the role of Social Security at one level is to provide a safety net that our communities and our individuals can be confident that they will not fall below and that should offer them the dignity that we have already talked about but to do that is not the two child cap to do that is the aberration that is Universal Credit it fails to recognize the complexity of individuals lives it was initially brought in to try and even out the complexity make a simple system that could then be delivered we have SE seen through experience that that has not happened under the Tory government at Westminster it has become almost as complex as the Myriad of benefits that it sought to replace and we have said here today that labor will look and review Universal Credit and we do so for the very reason that we had earlier in the discussion and I will bring my comments to Ann Deputy presiding officer over the parental transition fund a promise of the SNP government for5 million pound a year an original idea that came through parents themselves and commented upon the Joseph rry Foundation only for them now to be told a year later they can't have it because we don't have the power so can I urge all governments to be incredibly care careful about what they promise and make sure that they can deliver what they promise because people feeling betrayed upsets and actually lowers the reputation of politicians governments and indeed parliaments I'm grateful Deputy presiding officer thank you Mr Whitfield and I now call colate Stevenson Miss Stevenson thank you presiding officer it's challenge poverty week and today's theme is adequate incomes so it's very apt that we are having this debate the UK government must scrap the to child limit it is abhorent punitive and undermines action to reduce child poverty in Scotland the two child cap lightly affects around 1,000 children in my EO bride constituency and over 880,000 children in Scotland last year families in Scotland lost nearly 96 million compounding hardship during this to coastal living crisis and that is nothing short of disgraceful as in gender pointed out this policy disproportionately affects women and is part of a toi welfare system that entrenches women's poverty abolishing the two child limit could left 20,000 children in Scotland out of poverty and research suggests this would cost around 1.3 billion across the whole of the UK a fraction of the 4.3 billion the Tor government Dr off an alleged fraudulent coid loan presiding officer the two child limit is also known as the rape Clause the UK government website says that there are except exceptions to the two child limit including where a child was born as a result of nonconceptual conception women have to declare the name of their child and sign to confirm that they quote unquote believe that this applies to their son or daughter in Scotland over 2,000 5 500 women last year had to relive the trauma of sexual assault or coercive control just to put food on the table this is just one example of the cruel effects of the two child limit an abhorent policy introduced by the Tories and one that the labor party will keep a recent study led by the University of Y York found that the two child limit is a poverty producing policy that has failed even to meet its own aims the researchers found families with three or more children that did not know about the two child cap because they were not on benefits at the time of the birth of course circumstances for anyone can change and you don't know when you might have to rely on the social security safety net that safety net has been shrinking under the UK Tori government with limited poers over social Security in recent years the SNP and government has built a new system with dignity fairness and respect at its core the gamechanging Scottish child payment has been rolled out by the Scottish government providing £25 per week for every eligible child and it is estimated to lift around 50,000 children out of poverty in the next 12 months this policy highlights the Stark difference between the crew of the Westminster system and the fairness of Scotland's Social Security System presiding officer I welcome the fact that Scottish labor are favorable to the SMP calls to scrap the two child cap however that means nothing unfortunately since their Westminster colleagues have made it clear that a UK labor government will keep it now considering the Tori Amendment it's clear to me that they that they just don't get it they to support austerity to manage public finances for future Generations presiding officer their austerity agenda and policies like the rape Clause are harming those future Generations leaving aside the immorality of their policy choices with nearly one in three children in the UK living in poverty that statement is a false economy child poverty affects future outcomes it leads to Future tax receipt losses for government as well as additional Social Security spending in the long run cpeg estimates child poverty will cost the UK government at the very least 39.5 billion this year given that the Tories don't actually care about the reality of the public finances and they certainly don't care that their policies are creating poverty the conservatives say they are the party of grow well the economy is on the verge of recession the only thing that they are growing is child poverty presiding officer I want to tackle and eradicate poverty and it isn't easy there are many factors at play however what is clear to me is that there are some easy choices that would actually relieve child poverty levels and help ensure no more children are dragged into poverty you happy to take an intervention mock thank you very much I really appreciate the M taking intervention I I really I I'm sure I hope that you picked up from my speech that I'm really Keen for us to make progress and really change child poverty so i' be really Keen to know what it is um when the group meet what you discuss in terms of what more can be done here and now H in terms of child poverty and how you make sure you do push the front benches on that in conclusion Miss Stevenson sorry can I just ask you to clarify what you mean by the group um could you elaborate on that thanks of course yeah on the group that that you set on the S SMP Group C Stevenson I'm I'm sorry yeah I'm going to move on actually I'm running out of time okay however for as long as Scotland as at a mercy of right-wing Tor and labored governments we will need to spend money Miss ating the worst effects of West Minister decisions in a union where policies like the two child benefit cap or rape claws are allowed to exist there can be no doubt that the only way to protect families in Scotland is with Independence thank you thank you and we move to winding up speeches and I call on Michael Mara up to six minutes please thank you uh presiding officer and thank you to all members who have participated in our this debate today Scottish labor welcomes the opportunity to debate child poverty and broader poverty um every uh opportunity because child poverty and there is I think uh unanimity across uh the chamber on this point is a moral front uh the shape of our economy in Scotland determines that a quarter of children in this country grow up in grinding daily poverty and that should be and I believe is an affront to every one of us um those children are not saved by social Mobility which has collapsed in Scotland over recent decades it's still significantly uh more difficult for young people from the poorest of backgrounds to Aspire to a better and a different life for them their families and their communities access to higher education particularly university courses that lead to the professions with the highest earnings are remain closed to far too many and if we were to address that we have to build an economy that ensures greater equality instead of seeking to accelerate uh divisions but we should presiding offer reflect on the political context um that we're having this conversation today um I think that the the scenes um that we've been watching from Manchester have been frankly um to be expected you know standing room only for Liz trust uh trust a year on from crashing the UK economy um whilst the rest is a sparsely attended Trump rally uh replete with conspiracy theories um abound in in all the speeches anti 15minute neighborhoods in the control in the control of populations coming from conservative ministers um anti woke uh removing I believe the the walk from science uh one of the the most ludicrous things produced I think uh by the the uh the Tor party this week frankly it's anti-reality uh the the conservative party meeting in Manchester in recent days um they are desperate to divide people by whatever means U wherever they can um and I'm afraid and I don't don't share I don't to spread the entirety of that to the S&P far from it I have to say but there are things that they have been making up today there are things that have been entirely made up and I have to say presiding officer Scottish labor remains opposed to the two child limit we've been abundantly clear on that our position has not changed my colleagues Paul Kain Carl mockin and Martin Whitfield have set that out in some clear detail we are absolutely clear that Universal Credit does require fundamental reform it absolutely has to happen but we are in the fourth debate in two weeks from the SNP specifically about the labor party not about their job of governing the country but specifically about the labor party and it's great on some levels as Mr Whitfield pointed out to Mr Doris that they have faith in the labor party's ability to form a government across the UK and bring change to the people of Scotland but I gently say to them in these debates just saying things about the labor party doesn't make them true it doesn't make them true so misrepresenting the position of the labor party in this area or any other will not change a single vote in R Glen tomorrow I can tell them that because our approach to politics is defined by the issue of poverty and child poverty Labor's record in this area stands up to scrutiny I'll take the member in a moment the scourge of child poverty does hold back this country it's a malignant Legacy of collective moral failure and addressing it will be a defining purpose of any labor government at any time past or future yes K fores in that vein taking that at face value if there was a policy presented to the labor party which would tomorrow lift 15,000 children out of poverty like scrapping the Scottish child the SC like scrapping the two child cap would the labor party do that rather than waiting for a review Michael I can absolutely make the comment if the if this government wants to bring for forward a policy tomorrow to scrap that that cap if they wanted to lift 15,000 children out of poverty then we would happily back that position if that was what this government do but I would say to H to cap Forbes it's might want reminding labor is not in power here or in Westminster and you are you could do it and you could do it now because actually we've various quotes across the debate Mr Stuart saying that he wanted it done uh we want an end to that immediately let's get rid of it now Maggie Chapman it could be done tomorrow but not by the labor party by the SNP you could mitigate it tomorrow should you took the option to do it no thank you m on this point you've had your chance and you maybe come back to you later on yes well I think that's a fair comment it was a point that was answered I think so I would say this issue of timing the labor party cannot act on this issue now we do think there's a fundamental review of UN Universal Credit required that's absolutely clear no thank you but if we are to make real inroads into bringing child poverty back down again in this country we must tackle the scourge of inw work poverty and I've heard nothing or very very little from the S&P benches today other than some warm words about Labor's position on the uh the New Deal for working people but we want to say that we would ban in government zero our contracts uh obviously bad news for the snp's byelection Strate in that regard we would out Outlaw fire and rehire day one rights the sick pay parental leave and undef dismissal and we'd ensure the minimum wage is a livable wage and the general secretary and Mr Stu might want to listen to this because that is the program no thank you Mr Doris that is the program that has been endorsed by the TU calling those proposals transformative absolutely yes um I recognize that the TU have made positive comments around about some of these things now Mr Mara has just said that the labor party will scrap scrap h fire and rehire on day one why can they not do the same with a two child cap it's that simple if you can do it for one thing why not for this one in conclusion Michael I move to conclude I'm afraid Mr Stuart will find that's not what I said why no no it is not you'll check you'll check the for day one rights to sick pay so when you go into a job you have day one rights check the official record and you'll find out what the policy of the labor party is is as I have related it officer and these benches the government benches trying to misrepresent it on a weekly basis will do them no favors thank you and I now call on Jeremy Bal for up to seven minutes please thank you president officer it's always interesting to find out the schol government bring forward a debate on Social Security I always find myself wondering what the topic of the debate will be will it be addressing the unaccepted procession times experienced by those who are trying to claim benefits for Social Security Scotland will it be how long it's taken to transfer the devolve benefits to Social Security Scotland and maybe thanking the DWP for agreeing to continue to administrate some benefits in the meantime or will it be simply the schull government taken the time to apologize to all those who have been failed by the Sambo's attempt to distribute much needed support of course not presiding officer not at the moment because this government is not interested in looking at their own feelings they would rather deflect than actually own up to the mess they have made today Pro officer we have seen tactic number one from a green nationalist Playbook shout about something the UK government is doing where sitting on their hands and not taking action that is well within the competency to take because the truth is that the Scottish government if he really cared that deep about the two two child cup they could do something about it Kevin Stewart Alex Co Hamilton Kate Forbes Marie McMan Maggie Chapman Bob Doris Colette Stevens here is the good news we have the power in this Parliament to deal with the issue here and now and you have decided as a government to sit on your hands and do nothing about except to slag off other governments this is not student politics this is school politics it is simply shouting at somebody else who are taking no responsibility for it yourself they could decide to give these families more money if they wanted it to but they have chosen simply not to do it I will take oh my goodness how so many uh I'll take Miss fors I heard her first keep fors in the spirit of taking responsibility Jeremy Baler is a member of the conservatives and according to C campaigners the conservatives have plunged 15,000 children into poverty does he take responsibility for that well I think let's look at the number of children in tempor accommodation that this government have put into trouble but actually I don't because like Miss fogs I was elected to this Parliament to deal with issues that we are responsible if I wanted to go to Westminster I would have gone there well according to elor but I chose to come here and the point is we have the powers but the front bench sit there and are simply happy to point fingers at other governments and do nothing I need to pleas Mo on the reality of govern governance is that there are choices that have to be made you have to decide what your priorities are and then make the difficult decisions the Scot government if they want to live for two child cap they should top up payments for bigger families finding the money from another budget such as health or education this exactly the same process Mr B but you're asking the UK government no you're asking the UK government to do they must make decisions about where to spend their finite budget it is time for the SNP full their own advice if it means that much to them Miles Briggs in his contribution I think helpfully pointed out the amount of money that the UK has spent over the last number of years particularly around Co in protecting the most vulnerable here in Scotland Rose mcco made the absolute right point that this Scottish government has failed on its promise around fre School meals and neither John swinny nor Kate Forbes have given us a reason why that promise has been broken but actually what we should be debating today presiding officer is how do we get more people out of poverty Martin Whitfield was right in his contribution to talk about child care and education but let's look at what this government is doing around gin Mo disabled people into employment the number of disabled people uh looking to get into employment is higher here in Scotland than anywhere else in the UK let's look what we're doing in regard to education as we fall further and further down the leagues across the world let's look what we're doing to help people from all backgrounds into employment simply feeling them we don't want I'm sure collectively to see any individual any family on benefits what we want to give people is opportunity to be able to work and to be able to provide for their own families perhaps if the Scottish government started debating the devolved Powers we have to miss colge Parliament more than talking cabinet secretary I'm grateful to to the member for the opportunity to to make the point to to invite him to work with the Scottish government if he wants us to do more with the powers that we have then help us to stop having to mitigate 127 million pound per year on the worst excesses of the UK government 405 million on a Scottish child payment because the Universal Credit is absolutely pitiful in this country actually have an essential guarantee where we can help people because they can't always be in work and even if they are in work they will need support from the benefit system why so why don't the Scottish conservatives work with us to see what we could do to stop us having to mitigate against the worst excesses of the UK government and we could actually have that money to spend unemployability in child care and elsewhere in conclusion Mr Baler yeah thank the issue is here cabinet secretary it's about political choice the UK government have made choices you have made choices your choice has been not to intervene to get rid of this that is a choice you have made and your government has made in conclusion presiding officer we all need to work to help those who are the most vulnerable in our society let's start talking more about what we can do within this Parliament and what this government can do and stop talking about other parliaments where we have not been elected to thank you thank you and I now call on Emma rodic to wind up up to 9 Minutes Minister thank you presiding officer let me be very clear from the outset the Scottish government does not have the powers to scrap the two child cap Jeremy Baler might want to check again which Parliament he was elected to and where the powers sit because what members calling for mitigation are actually calling for is not for us to scrap the cap it is to allow people to go through that awful process to go through the rape clause and then come to ask ask him for the money that the UK government should have given them in the first place it is not a scrap and we do not have those Powers if we were in charge of income benefits we wouldn't dream of denying vital support to Children the powers to change this sit with the UK government and it is only the SNP and greens who are trying to do anything about that presiding officer in a debate which is about whether children who did not choose to be born should be exempt from State support due to archaic judgments about people who need to rely on benefits and the number of siblings that that child has it is astounding that there has been so much disagreement the Scottish government has consistently called on the UK government to scrap this policy and support all children and it's a shame that others refuse to follow our example even when they agree completely with how awful the policy is yes certainly I I can confirm to the minister that Scottish labor will be voting for the motion this evening on that basis and there's unanimity around it there's a word that we disagree in it Minister but the difference here is that labor if they are successful in the next Westminster election will not be scrapping the two child cap they're talking about reviews they're talking about waiting and seeing and looking into whether this is a terrible policy which we all know it is and in a moment cuz as a Social Democrat as someone who wants to see child poverty eradicated I've been really disappointed with Scottish labor so I can't imagine how their supporters feel I will give way to Carl car mock I I want I thank the minister for taking the intervention I want to understand what the con conflict is you know we're supporting the motion today um I certainly have called on how do we work together and it just seems that we're placing conflict in a place where we should not be doing that Minister I think there's there's a policy in a place that it shouldn't be and whereas we would scrap it immediately labor is refusing to go down that road and labor had the opportunity to say that they would ditch this cap if they got into power and instead they're dancing around it presumably playing up to the gallery of conservative voters because what have we heard from labor today we've heard we're not going to ditch this policy if we get in but why don't you mitigate us they don't support the powers being devolved to allow us to change the system but they're asking us to mitigate the conservative decision that their UK colleagues have decided to inherit and Safeguard how Brazen can you get I will give way to Paul Paul thank you does the minister agree with me that Universal Credit is fundamentally flawed that it needs to be reformed in all of its parts and that's about more than one policy as a Bor as a policy is it's about taking Universal Credit and making it a proper safety net for people who need it and also ensuring that work pays and pays well Minister certainly have have a review of Universal Credit but you could scrap this and have a review you could do both absolutely if if even Scottish labor has accepted that no matter who is in power down south it will fall to the government here to step in and provide a bit of sense and a bit of fairness in welfare policy it is perhaps time for them to stop shouting down every mention of Independence because they are very close to getting the point that we've been making this whole time exactly because in Paul o kain's words little changes here and there won't do it we need fundamental change the UK is even more broken than Universal Credit and we don't need a lengthy review to tell us that I'm going to make progress thank you here in Scotland we do not choose to cap the number of kids that we think shouldn't be hungry the Scottish child payment is there for all eligible children no questions about how many siblings they have or whether they were a planned conception because that would be wrong and it's astounding to me that we're sitting debating that and hearing Miles Briggs say that this policy is about fairness there's no fairness in this policy the conservatives and Miles Briggs and his comments about employment also seemed to Echo George Osborne's comments when the policy was first launched when he claimed it would force families in receit of benefits to make the same Financial choices about having children as the those supporting themselves solely through work and if he'd accepted one of my interventions earlier I would have asked him if he realizes that 59% of the families affected by this cap are in work people who are in work are facing unprecedented challenges with budgeting thanks to his party crashing the economy and refusing to protect children from bearing the brunt of that and when we're talking about children I can't get my head around someone who looks at a hungry child and decides that we shouldn't do anything about it because of uninformed judgments about the personal decisions of the parents but regardless nuffield Foundation analysis shows that the policy has had little impact on birth rates which is just as well because we want to need more babies to be born in Scotland but it shows that whatever the Tories thought that they were doing with this policy it has not worked Carl moin's assessment of the Tori Amendment today was absolutely right it is a bizarre rewriting of history that completely fails to acknowledge that the future Generations they're talking about carefully managing finances for are growing up in poverty now certainly Jeremy B question both to miss fs and to Mr swi NE ofers that for Minister would answer if we are so concerned about children growing up in poverty why is this clost government failed to deliver its promise in regard to fre School meals being delivered by now why the delay if you're so concerned minister that that is a commitment that we're still absolutely behind we will be rolling out universal free School meals and on the later points made by Carl mockin I would extend the invitation that the cabinet secretary was was trying to offer for her or Scottish labor spokes people um in the runup to the budget to come along to meetings tell us what they want us to do when they come to debates and say do more give us some detail tell us what it will cost and where the money should come from because we do always want to do more but we have to do the work and not just say do more because I'm sitting here part of a current government that spent over 400 million in this year on the Scottish child payment almost £3 billion pound on policies that tackle poverty while labor is in opposition they've not even made it to government yet and they are prevaricating on ditching something as awful as the two child cap Martin Whitfield was right to talk about what we can do here in Scotland there's plenty that we are doing and there's plenty more that we could do if we had the financial welfare or employment powers that we need or if we weren't having to constantly mitigate the worst of UK decisions I will give way to milb milb gr for the minister for taking this intervention just before the debate the cabinet secretary sent me a letter at first Mr his questions I raised when will all benefits be devolved to Scotland um the Scottish government still don't have a date for that so why when the government are saying they're doing so much do they not manage to find the ways of delivering what they have here in the Scottish Parliament Minister uh this this is a joint program with the the DWP so it's not entirely within our gift to States when powers are going to be devolved but certainly not all powers are planned to be devolved so it's maybe a question you should be turning around and asking the UK government about because when our mitigation bill is sitting at over a billion pounds and Scottish labor keep coming to this chamber and asking us to add to that when they won't put their money where their mouth is but instead abandon principles before they even take office I suggest that there's a bigger problem at play and my colleagues behind me were right to keep pointing out that Independence is needed if we want to tackle this issue without constantly fighting against the tide official figures released on 13th of July revealed that a total of 2,590 women had to disclose details of rape to receive welfare support for a third or subsequent child Rape Crisis Scotland said that the two child polic policy for accessing child tax credits is cruel and forces families into poverty particularly during the cost of living crisis nobody should be forced to disclose sexual violence to access welfare and that Clause lays bare the unfairness at the heart of this cap if your policies are supported for children conceived by other means it tells parents well that's your fault for getting pregnant as if circumstances don't change as if assault and abuse are easy to prove and as if how they're conceived or born could ever justify a child growing up in poverty the two child cap in telling women that they must be raped to be deserving of help ignores bodily autonomy the possibility of contraception failing religious views on the use of contraception or abortion it ignores the experiences of women it is misogynistic at heart it is also punishing children because their parents are on low incomes it cannot be right to limit the financial support available to children and we don't need a review to tell us any of this the two child cap is one of the most blatant punitive and plain wrong policies that I can ever remember so labor needs to take a step back listen to the lines that they are repeating and waken up to them because I can't believe that my colleagues over there who often speak very passionately about tackling poverty genuinely want to defend the indefensible no exceptions the minister must conclude could ever be enough there should be no exception to our efforts to eradicate child poverty nobody deserves poverty thank you

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