thank you that concludes the ministerial statement I apologize to those members I was not able to take but I think I had made it clear how things were progressing and could not have been cleared in that regard we will now move on to the next item of business which is a debate on Motion 6374 in the name of Elena whitam on behalf of the social justice and Social Security committee on robbing Peter to pay Paul low income and the debt trap I would ask those members who would wish to speak in the debate to please price the request to speak buttons and I call on Elena whitham just speak to and to move the motion on behalf of the social justice and Social Security committee up to nine minutes please Ms little Deputy presiding officer as convener I am pleased to be opening this debate on the social justice and Social Security committees important inquiry into low-income and debt yougov research commissioned by citizens advice Scotland found that over 600 000 people have encountered new debt problems during the pandemic either getting into debt for the first time or seeing existing debt get worse and with the cost crisis it is likely that we will see these numbers grow exponentially as the cost of Basics rise sharply in Energy prices Skyrocket households across the country are limiting their use of Essentials and suffering a significant Decline and their mental and physical well-being people are desperately worried about the future and we as a committee share their concerns spiraling costs will push an increasing number of people into debt because they simply do not have enough money to pay for all basic outgoings and bills and as a committee we set out to explore specific challenges faced by people with low income and accessing and finding solutions to their debt situation we wanted to find out their key challenges and how we could help them what more could be done our starting point for this work was the focus group with people experiencing debt problems we wanted their experience to be at the heart of the inquiry and to inform the scope of their work of this work their testimony shaped the questions posed in our call for views and the committee's subsequent evidence-taking sessions and what a stark picture they painted despite receiving advice on Social Security entitlement and other forms of income and maximization many people on low income simply did not have enough money to make essential living costs they were stuck in an inevitable cycle of debt operating with deficit budgets and there was no obvious way out bankruptcy might be a short-term solution for some however for many money advisors spent significant time trying to negotiate reduced payments with public sector creditors or accessing charitable support with the sole aim of enabling their clients to have enough money to live participants from our original focus group formed our experts by experience panel who made recommendations to the committee on how things could be improved these recommendations fed directly into the committee's report for us this was about empowering people not just to tell us their story but to be involved in shaping change in fact the report title robbing Peter to pay Paul low income and the debt trap is also a quote taken directly from one of our experts by experience and I would like to thank each and every one of them who gave evidence to the committee particularly our experts by experience who diligently engage with us throughout this work this wouldn't have been possible also without the organizations who supported them and the committee extends its sincere thanks to all of you during this inquiry we were told problem debt has a particular stigma and shame attached to it that leaves people feeling trapped isolated unable to sleep many of these worries are related to wider stigma around poverty Deputy presiding office so this was a far-reaching inquiry with recommendations that span a number of different Scottish government portfolios as well as local government and UK government responsibilities we looked at debt owed to schools through School meals council tax debt the advice sector the availability of information and support early intervention and prevention mental health and statutory debt solutions such as bankruptcy and I hope that a range of these areas will be touched on by my colleagues today but in my remaining time I will focus on just two of the key areas we explored public sector debt and money advice often when we think of debt we think of debt owed to private businesses like credit cards and Loans increasingly we might think about debt owed to fuel costs we may not think so quickly about the role of public sector please and debt and areas such as social housing benefit deductions council tax care charges and school charges we were told that debt owed to public bodies is increasing as people struggle to pay bills collection of this debt can be quicker and harder than from private creditors for lgp council tax can result in enforcement action Cass highlighted that council tax debt is one of the biggest debts that they see in bureaus local authorities tend to figure favor Bank Investments as the way of enforcing payment this means that money can be seized directly from people's bank accounts steps have been taken to bring greater consistency consistency to local Authority debt collection but we heard that this has not always felt on the ground we were concerned to hear that public sector processes are not always sensitive enough to individual circumstances our experts by experience stress that compassion must be built into these processes and services we can't have rigid faceless Services always assume that the debtor is wrong this makes the whole experience work worse for the individual and anxiety we need a fundamental change in Attitude from Frontline Services dealing with people in debt we believe the public sector should aim to lead by best practice by handling debt and Affair and more considerate way debt recovery should not be done should be done proportionately based on individual circumstances and people should be treated with compassion we were also concerned to hear that people are sometimes filled by clunky systems which are not connected or easy to use people must take it upon themselves to navigate complex systems to get the support they're entitled to often at times where they have very limited emotional and financial capacity to do so the burden of responsibility falls on individuals too often and this is the theme that emerges often in our committee work before I return to the role of the free money sector advice sector I want to touch on School meals there's another important area where quick action could be taken free School Meal Provisions should be increased and rolled out at PACE and School Meal debts should be written off this is already happening in some councils but not all and as I said during my debate on challenge poverty week winds need to eat last but no by by no means least I turned to the advice sector and the people across Scotland who are working tirelessly to help people who are existing in truly desperate circumstances money advisors are doing a hugely difficult but important job and helping people to navigate their finances and they may be suffering their own financial and well-being challenges and the process debt advisors told us that they are firefighting and they're hanging on by their fingertips they're burnt out by the demand on their services the complexity of cases and the lack of available options to resolve people's problems Witnesses raised issues around about the awareness of advice Services stigma around seek and help Channel choice and digital exclusion as well as funding concerns questions against poverty shared an example with us of one of the many people they support through their debt advice this client is coming to the end of a minimal assets process bankruptcy their sole income is social security benefits they suffer from depression anxiety and panic attacks once they've been discharged from bankruptcy they will have eight pound fifty five a week to live on for all food and household items living on a budget of one of eight pound fifty five is not sustainable and the very tragic reality is that this individual will fall straight back into problem debt debt advisors also highlighted that many low-income households are the most prudent money managers who will ever come across they know where every single penny goes and can account from every part of their income the problem is that the income is simply not enough to cover the costs we must continue to use all available Avenues to tackle poverty and resulting debt issues and we must take a person-centered approach I'm proud of the committee's inquiry and the work is undertaken to shine the light on the complex circumstances that lead people to become indebted and their struggle to find solutions to that debt this is systemic and interlinking challenges of tackling poverty were interwoven in this work we make a wide range of recommendations which we think can make a real difference to people who are the most marginalized and overwhelmed by their debt those whose incomes are so low that there can seem to be no feasible way to pay off debt and no way out of the debt trap I hope that the Scottish government the UK government and local authorities recognize the compelling evidence received by the committee on these issues and work together to enact the much-new the collective teams on behalf of the social justice and Social Security committee I move that the parliament notes the conclusions and recommendations contained and the social justice and Social Security committees eighth report 2022 session sex Robin Peter to PayPal poll low-income and the debt trap and I did all of that having a menopausal hot flush yes kill me thank you [Applause] thank you well done Miss with him I'd look forward to seeing you back at the uh at the members business uh later on this afternoon and before we move to the next speaker can I encourage those who haven't already done so the press the request to speak buttons as soon as possible and I call on Jillian Martin to speak on behalf of the Health social care and support committee for around four minutes Miss Martin thank you Poseidon officer thank the social Social Security committee for bringing the debate to the chamber today and earlier this year the Health social care and support committee completed its initial inquiry into Health inequalities in Scotland and the rising cost of living inevitably impacted on our evidence and Scotland has got enduring Health inequalities the resulting good part from a number of historic factors outlined by several experts that we heard from and we found that Health inequality has increased across the population during the years leading up to the pandemic and then the pandemic exacerbated them and we heard that destitution rules during the pandemic and people from black and minority ethnic communities and disabled people were more likely to die and that caring responsibilities became almost insurmountable and caused mental health issues now this isn't a debate about health inequalities but the inescapable fact is that poverty is the root cause of Health inequalities and the rapid rise in the cost of living is set to worsen long-term health of action isn't taken and during our inquiry we heard that a number of households where spending exceeds incomes is rapidly increasing and it's a phrase that we hear a lot but the reality is that people are choosing to between eating and heating and this is impacting more and more families people with complex conditions are those who provide informal care have additional costs with often very little income and we heard that people with multiple sclerosis for example will face an additional 200 pounds per week on average on in ill existing gas bills and we also heard that some families have extensive medical equipment to power many medical and Mobility devices require charging or constant electricity to function and members will be aware of the recent coverage of a family facing an expected 17 000 pounds Energy bill to keep their daughter with cerebral palsy a warm and Alive the rest of family will freeze to ensure that she can have heat in her room many people with disabilities are reduced mobility and must have their heating at higher levels to stay warm and prevent them from becoming seriously ill people also told this journal inquiry that they had to stop social and recreational activities due to the increased costs and we and our predecessor committees have advocated for the importance of physical activity social interaction and participating in Social and cultural activities as a way to prevent ill health and without being able to do these activities and refer to do these activities physical and mental health suffers and social isolation increases we heard of people been able to attend Health and Social care services and stopping self-management because of financial hardship ahead of pensioners been pushed into extreme fuel poverty and we heard that as a result of the cost of living crisis that child without despite all the interventions that were made by the Scottish government child poverty is on the rise so the poorest most vulnerable people in society are those that are bearing the brunt of this crisis and they can get a significantly worse for a lot of households Professor Sir Michael Marmot told us that inflation has a much bigger impact on households with low incomes than it does in health households with higher incomes and that seems to seems self-evident but um you know it's it's not just an exercise in in philosophy this is actually making a real difference that's pushing people that live in the margins of their um income into poverty and thus widening Health inequalities it was laid bare to our committee we're toward people in the purest communities are quite literally dying because of inequalities poverty and repeated challenges they're facing Professor Jerry McCartney told us plainly that the rising mortality of our poorest communities will get worse and they will get worse faster if those challenges are not addressed properly we're left in no doubt the cost of living crisis and the Urgent Public Health and Social Justice emergency and as a committee with recommended targeted action to address Health inequalities including tackling under laying inequality in poverty as its root cause at all levels local government Scottish government and UK government there is action needed at all levels and it's needed now or will be looking at widening Health inequalities for generations to come thank you thank you very much this morning and I call on Siobhan Brown to speak on behalf of the covid-19 recovery again around four minutes thank you deputy prison officer it's my pleasure to speak 19 recovery committee on such an important topic and I commend the social justice and Social Security committee for bringing this debate to the chamber I'll shortly be talking about some of the committee's work within the context of the cost crisis but first it's important to stress that the impact of the cost crisis is a cross-cutting issue affecting everyone today's debate is an excellent opportunity to highlight parliamentary committees scrutiny on this issue which is very welcome like other committees we have just completed our pre-budget scrutiny and wrote to the deputy first Minister last week with our recommendations which included calling on the Scottish government to clarify whether the cost crisis will affect the funding of the covert recovery strategy as members are aware the strategy was published in October 2021 well before the scale of the cost crisis was apparent and during evidence we heard how the impact of the cost crisis could affect the funding and delivery of the strategy with Stark warnings that it will pose more significant challenges for organizations service providers and individuals than even those faced during the pandemic now we know that the Scottish government's budget is roughly 1.7 billion less than it was worth last December and if we ask whether the government intends to ref we ask whether the government intends to refresh the strategy to reflect any policy changes in light of the cost crisis on a similar vein at the recent covina's group meeting I asked the first Minister whether the government's priorities for Recovery had changed in light of the cost crisis and she confirmed its aims and objectives for Recovery had not changed but that the context had and the first Minister spoke of the importance of focusing on inequalities made worse by the pandemic and the cost crisis particularly on ethnic minorities and those who are less well off in your report you looked at bankruptcy and digital exclusion amongst many other things and many both areas being impacted by the by the cost crisis these are areas which this committee considered as part of our scrutiny on the covert recovery and reform Bill to put simply the bill was introduced to make permanent some Provisions that were introduced through the emergency covert legislation in relation to Public Health and public service reform which covered the remote delivery of public services and the aim was to retain some service improvements brought in which was brought in during the pandemic and support resilience against any future Public Health threats we heard the experiences of delivering Public Services remotely including increased flexibilities and resource savings however witness Witnesses highlighted some of the barriers to accessibility which exists for some users and the committee recommended that the bill be amended to ensure all local authorities provide a choice of remote or in-person services including the provision of hard copy documents when required we also looked at the bankruptcy Provisions in the bill and before I go on it's worth explaining that people can only be forced into bankruptcy by the creditors if they owe above a certain amount of money and emergency covert legislation increase the debt Threshold at which a creditor could make someone bankrupt to protect people from harsh outcomes during the pandemic and the bill set up permanently at a higher rate the committee heard mixed views on what the debt threshold level should be and noted that the cost crisis has escalated considerably since the bill was introduced the government subsequently acknowledged the need to keep this threshold under review particularly in light of the current economic situation turning to our future work we're about to look at the impact of covert on the long on the labor market specifically focused on long-term sick component of economically inactive people as well as people who have chosen early retirement and I'm sure issues relating to the cost crisis are bound to come up over the course of this inquiry presiding officer just to finish as with the covert itself this issue is a complex one and it's not going to go away anytime soon it's an area which requires accident from both the UK governments and the Scottish governments has been previously mentioned in this debate today highlights a strong parliamentary scrutiny being done to ensure we can respond appropriately appropriately to the fiscal pressures that we all face thank you thank you very much indeed I can advise the team but we've got a little bit of time in hand so anybody taking interventions will get that time back for the first of your problem with that I call the cabinet secretary for around nine minutes uh government secretary uh thank you uh presiding officer I'm very grateful to Alina Witham um and her committee for the substantial work on this inquiry and want to thank the individuals and organizations that took the time to give evidence on the issues that are affecting people and how governments can Target their efforts to help those most need I also want to thank um uh Jillian Martin and Siobhan Brown for the contribution from their committees also the continuing negative impact of brexit alongside the current cost of living crisis of pushed households into hardship and I am acutely aware of that those pressures have been made worse by the recent economic Mayhem that the UK government has caused over the past few weeks and this has all exacerbated existing inequalities and finance natural stress even further than when the committee published their report and we provided our response on the actions that we're taking and the plans for the future the committee's recommendations raise a number of issues which span a wide range of policy areas and local Scottish and UK government responsibilities and within our limited powers and finite budget the Scottish government is already addressing many of the recommendations in their inquiry report and we'll continue to work across government as well as with Partners including costler to improve the response to and the services available for those experiencing a problem debt households are facing the most severe economic upheaval in a generation with alarming rises in energy bills food prices and inflation rates undoubtedly hitting those on the lowest incomes the hardest Scottish government's budget is not immune to those same economic shocks and as the deputy first Minister set out last month our budget is now worth around 1.7 billion less than when it was set in December because of increasing inflation yeah in stark contrast to the UK government the Scottish government has taken sustained and significant action to tackle poverty we've allocated almost 3 billion pounds this year for a support that will help mitigate the impact of increasing costs on households over a billion pounds of which is only available in Scotland so through free child's care bus travel prescriptions eye tests Dental checkups and period products we are supporting households in all areas of life through a range of actions all supporting people through the crisis and Beyond and putting a total of 150 million pounds in the pockets of low-income families through bridging payments over this year and last is also Direct Cash support to households now and in direct response to the additional pressure families are facing this winter we're also doubling the December payment for eligible families act uh yes of course tell me about that I'm grateful to the cabinet secretary um one of the things that was hoped would be will be p73 meals provided and misfinanced year which has been delayed by I think at least one year can the cabinet essentially confirm that next academic year every child in Scotland who goes to p7 will have a free School Meal Balfour will be aware that frequency provision in Scotland is way in excessive anywhere else on these islands particularly in England where his party is in power and direct response to the peoples um that are already receiving a free School meals and primarily one to five is saving parents 400 pounds per eligible child per year and we are continuing to work with our partners and local authorities to plan for the expansion to primary six and seven and that's been supported by 30 million pounds of capital investment to support that expansion so we'll get on a with supporting families in as many ways as we can actions showing that the Scottish government will always do what it can to help those in need and take action to tackle tail poverty reduce inequalities and help households maximize their money through up to 86 million pounds this year and discretionary housing payments we are fully mitigating the bedroom tax when 91 000 households supporting tenancies and reducing the chances of getting into debt and rentals and we've now committed to additional funding to mitigate the benefit cap as far as we're able for up to 4 000 families a clear commitment in our tackling to help poverty delivery plan and an example of our track record of using all of the powers available to us to soften the blue of the worst of the UK government's policy decisions and of course we also recently announced that local authorities can use their dhp's budgets to support households with energy bills with an additional 5 million pounds committed for this financial pressures are almost are often felt most acutely by people who rent their home and that's why we took action through the tenant protection act which came into Force last week to help tenants through the challenging months ahead by freezing rents and preventing evictions and of course presiding officer when people are in need of a safety net our Scottish social security system built upon the principles of fairness dignity and respect provide 12 benefits seven of which are unique to Scotland in just over a week our package of five family payments will be worth over ten thousand pounds for eligible families by the time their first child turns six and this includes the Scottish tile payment which we doubled to 20 pounds per week per child in April and will of course increase again to 25 pounds when we extend it to under 16 so on the 14th of November that is a hundred and fifty percent rise within eight months and way ahead of anything available anywhere else in these islands in addition our child went to heating assistance supports the families of almost 20 000 severely disabled children and young people with payments totaling around 4 million pounds each year this year's payment of 214 pounds 10 is already reaching people and again this is Scottish benefit only available to those in Scotland as is our new winter heating payment which will replace the UK cold weather payments and this guaranteed 50 pounds annual payment will be paid from next February to around 400 000 low-income households and that's backed by 20 million pounds of investment and is guaranteed help for winter fuel bills for thousands of people in need yes Pam duck and glancy without the cabinet safety for for taking the intervention and I know what the cabinet secretary said on the child winter heating assistance but does the cabinet secretary agree that disabled people over the age of 16 also face increased fuel costs and what can the Scottish government do to support those families well we do recognize that and of course many of the things I've already talked about will help people with a disabled family members and of course the Scottish welfare fund also that we fund um is available to to families with someone with a disability and of course we will continue to look at what more we can do but that is within the context of a very constrained Financial Outlook but as I say we continue to look at what more we can do and we're already spending 460 million pounds above the level of funding we receive um uh from the UK government in terms of benefit expenditure um and that is a substantial uh design officer we are doing uh much more to support people we're also leading the way with the provision of the most generous Universal preschool meal provision in the UK so that our children are not hungry in school and can focus on learning we also continue to provide funding for local authorities across Scotland for schemes such as the council tax reduction scheme the Scottish welfare fund I just mentioned and and can help that helps provide much needed support to vulnerable households furthermore we're the only part of the UK to have a statutory debt repayment scheme bringing important actions for those taking control of their debt and we've taken action on the protected minimum balance that can be retained and related to our bank arrestment on which the minister will see it more later presiding officer we recognize that sometimes financial difficulties can overwhelm people are at those most difficult times advice Services play a vital role in helping people to understand what they're entitled to and what their rights are and that's why we've allocated 12.5 million pounds this year to advise services including debt welfare and income maximization advice and over the past four years our money top service team has put just over 47 million pounds into the pockets of almost twenty one and a half thousand people and we've also committed to an additional 1.2 million pounds package to enable the expansion of energy advice services and of course that's in addition to our welfare advice practitioners within GP practices and that are helping people when they go to see a health professional um I will close uh deputies I can give you a bit a bit more attention all right well that would be extreme extremely say that we've tried all of this information into one place because we know trying to find out what people are entitled to it can be challenging that's why we've recently launched a cost of living website which provides trusted advice to help people understand the significant range uh available that's on the Scottish government's website um we're acutely aware of the growing impact on low-income households of debts to the public sector as was mentioned by Elena whittam um and of course local authorities have powers to write off for years and we continue to encourage them to share good practice on debt assistance and collection and to show empathy and dignity when working with people it's struggling it with debts and of course president officer in conclusion uh the UK government holds many of the levers that would lift households out of poverty and I would remain deeply concerned about their long-standing approach to social social security and whilst we are using all of our powers available to us to support households where we can including operating our benefits uh the social impacts of real terms cuts to UK government benefits are significant with more people on a low income being driven into poverty or deeper poverty and I would absolutely urge the UK government to reflect on that when they come to their budget statement um and we cannot have further austerity inflicted by this UK government and as the first Minister told the Prime Minister last week the UK government holds the levers over energy tax the bulk of benefits along with business support and regulation that could help address this crisis and support household public bodies and indeed businesses going forward so we've called on the UK government for an inflationally uplift to the 2022-23 budget to enable Scottish government to take further steps to support people with the cost of living crisis provide Fair public sector pay uplifts and support Public Services given the fiscal constraints on Devolution I just want to thank again the committee for this comprehensive report and thank them for bringing this debate to the chamber to allow us to shine a light on all of these issues thank you thank you cabinet secretary I now call Miles Briggs for around eight minutes Mr Brooks thank you Deputy for signing officer and can I also start by thanking all those who contributed to the work of the social justice and Social Security committee inquiry and also the helpful briefings at which organizations have provided us ahead of today's debate it's vital that we understand challenges being faced by people on low incomes and the debt problems often that drives particularly in the context of the global cost of living crisis which we're seeing and the results of that placing more and more people further into debt and that accompanying misery as well prior to the outbreak of the covid-19 pandemic it was estimated that 600 000 people were in debt in Scotland the real problem is that the pandemic has not only exasperated money problems for people in Scotland but is also now driving them as well and across the UK cost of living has been increasing since 2021 in September of this year inflation Rose by to a 40-year high of 10.1 percent now naturally it is those on the lowest income lowest income households who affected the worst by that increase in inflation High food and energy prices are among the consequences of high demand from consumers supply chain issues and I think most importantly as well we need to recognize the Fallout from the war in Ukraine as well those living on low incomes are more likely to be in debt with around half of low to Middle income households having at least one debt compared to less than two and five for higher income households and one of the key messages which came out of the inquiry and from those with lyrics experience and was the role I think which um advice Services have to play an early intervention can and must also provide and the role local authorities play in supporting and providing that advice to low-income individuals and families was important cutting Council budgets and services harms the poorest in our society that's something I think this Parliament sometimes doesn't recognize enough because they have already warned that further cuts to council budgets and services and we'll see the removal of services for the most vulnerable in our society yes happy too Governor's day actually I mean doesn't the funding of all of our Public Services whether it's local government or when it's NHS really depend on the decisions that are made in the forthcoming financial statement and if what is to be believed of deep public sector Cuts comes from his government is that not the biggest threat to Public Services whether it's local government or anywhere else I suppose we have to like thank you I suppose we have to look at the history of this and the fact that the Scottish government have the highest budget in the history of devolution yet decided to cut Council budgets shows where this government's priorities have been and the consequences that has but those likely to experience poverty and debt are amongst those most marginalized in our communities people with disability disabilities are most likely to face the highest success costs in the UK with one in five disabled people and one in four families with disabled children facing extra costs now estimated to be around more than a thousand pounds a month other groups including women young parents people living in rural areas and were also highlighted to the committee more needs to be done to ensure these groups are provided with equal opportunities in order to stop them disproportionately being affected by debt as well and it is concerning I think that ministers have if I if we've got time in hand yeah we've got time in hand still not with them thank you I I thank you for taking the intervention just wandering around about you mentioned young parents there do not agree that the UK government's DWP policy on how young parents under 25 retreated in terms of their their welfare provision actually you know exacerbates the poverty that those young parents are facing what must be yeah I agree with the member on that and as I've said in committee that's something I hope can be looked at by the UK government around this I think that's something we've heard evidence needs to change so get happy to accept that and that's where and those with lived experience I think really have provided the committee with um a lot of key thinking and areas we need to take forward but there's a lot this Parliament and councils need to be doing to change and that's what I want to focus on um in terms of our role here because it's also important and Incredibly concerning I believe the s p and green ministers have now targeted employability schemes for some of the largest budget cuts without any information on the impact or indeed providing assurances around what these schemes will be will look like and whether or not they'll be restarted I think that's something we need to make sure ministers and really monitor and look at the unintended consequences around as well and SMP and green ministers have in the past also highlighted and it was highlighted by Siobhan Brian from her committee digital exclusion and I don't think we've seen enough around that for people living in poverty in rural communities where advice services are not necessarily local but accessing them and the online services which are provided by many Charities across the country needs to and be improved so that's something I think which hasn't been necessarily touched upon we need to see action on as well ultimately though we need to see action from every level of government and we need to see our local councils properly resourced to be able to play their role in this but also both governments working together in this area to drive to deliver on the targets which we all sound up to specifically for example around child poverty Parliament has previously debated the need for more to be done to tackle the issue of child poverty in Scotland something that the audit Scotland report in September pointed towards a need for a better strategic planning approach by Scottish government and they concluded that SNP ministers need to focus on a more long-term strategy to prevent children from falling into poverty all of us agree it is not acceptable in 21st Scotland the 21st century Scotland to see the numbers of children living in poverty but how we work together across government to deliver on that is important I also make no apology for the fact that the number of children still living in temporary accommodation is increasing especially here in the capital and the Scottish government are simply not doing enough to provide the resources to councils to help prevent that or to rethink policy around that area it's something I've asked the cabinet secretary to act upon previously and we've seen the situation getting worse not better now an area where the committee heard the greatest difference can be made is around access to free School meals in the cabinet secretary touched upon this earlier as well I don't think we are seeing the agreed Pro progress on delivering this policy and when you look at the program for government there were clear commitments there which are now not being met I do hope that if anything comes out of this debate today it is the need for leadership from the Scottish government on that issue to deliver that promise Scottish ministers and local authorities take the same response we saw during the pandemic for example to this issue and I believe the policy could be delivered now without further delay Scottish conservatives support the delivery of free School meals we believe that all school children primary school and special school children should be given free breakfast and lunch and we also support continued provision for eligible children during school holidays as well that is a crucial way and we've seen the evidence around it in preventing people on low incomes from dropping under the poverty line and ensuring children from the most deprived backgrounds are cared for and receive access to nutritional food and that's something we've all signed up to but we need to see that focus on delivering it I hoped we would have seen it before this winter now I'd also call on the cabinet secretary to make that happen you know the cabinet secretary could chair a free School meals delivery group with kosler to drive that policy to be delivered before Christmas and I hope that's something she will take on board and consider and presenting officer yesterday I visited fed cap Scotland in Livingston to learn more about the employee employability support schemes they're providing I was hugely impressed with the work they're doing and the support which is being genuinely taken forward to provide that person-centered approach and we often talk about that but what does that mean and I think for many people who are furthest away from the employment Market it is also their mental well-being which needs to be considered as well so I was impressed with what they are doing but I do think and it's an area we won't have time to expand necessarily in this debate but we also need to look and I think going forward generational unemployment in Scotland and what additional support can be given to families there in conclusion Deputy episode an officer if we aspire to be a just fair Scotland we must afford all our citizens fair and equal opportunities the covid-19 pandemic and the war in Ukraine are two of the chief reasons why we are now witnessing Global cost of living increases and seeing more and more people in Scotland and across the UK falling into debt problems and also significant costs in living costs to deal with this we want to see the Scottish government West Minster and local authorities working together to take on this unprecedented crisis and to try to deliver solutions for all our people I hope that the actions and the recommendations of the report can be taken forward by local authorities and importantly the Scottish government there's a lot of good work in this report and I look forward to making sure that as a committee we continue to pursue that thank you thank you very much Mr Briggs um I would note that there have been a number of members coming in and out of the chamber I would remind the chamber that members who are participating in the debate should remain within the chamber and for all of the opening species and indeed for the closing species and with that I call Pam Duncan glancy for around seven minutes please thank you Deputy presiding officer I want to open today by putting on record my thanks to the many organizations and people who gave evidence to social justice and Social Security committee as part of our inquiry and who took the time to respond to the committee's call for written views hearing from representatives from local authorities third sector organizations tenants associations and advice Services was an eye-opening experience Charities like shelter Scotland our liver then the child poverty Action Group one parent family Scotland all gave evidence highlighting the breadth of the issue and the fact that people from all demographics and backgrounds are feeling the bite I'm sure my committee colleagues will agree it was a stark reality trick people were struggling before the cost of living crisis citizens advice Bureau requests for advice on debt almost doubled from four percent of total requests in May 2021 to 8 in May 2022 that was before the cost of bills began to Skyrocket now households across Scotland are facing prices rising at their fastest rate for 30 years not being able to keep up with bills can be the trigger for a downward spiral into severe problem debt without significant and Urgent action from both the UK and the Scottish government bills will continue to rise and more people will be forced to take on debt just to cover their essential costs including many who had never contemplated income insecurity before the people on the margins who were just about sleeping by before are now finding they have no space left to move they have no Financial resilience and they have no buffer to protect them against Rising bills nor the rising tide of poverty failure to act now and prevent more people falling into debt isn't just unacceptable it's also bad economics we know that debt causes Financial insecurity homelessness and mental health issues all things that require State resources and intervention put simply by allowing people to fall into problem debt the governments are costing themselves their future selves more money one money advisor told us that his advice web chat was the busiest after 10 pm at night people are lying awake in the early hours of the morning searching for help unable to sleep because they are so worried about being able to make ends meet they're desperate for Solutions in many cases they're reaching out before they're in debt they can feel that they're being squeezed and pushed to the edge and they are Desperately Seeking away to budget better and to cut back where they can but the reality is that for too many people the choice is now about which essential Bill not to pay there is nowhere left to cut back and that they haven't already sacrificed money advisors report that they've run out of auctions they're struggling to help people budget when outgoing such as rent council tax Heating and electricity eat up people's entire income streams leaving nothing left over to pay debt including for Fitness Essentials or credit card bills or bank loans one witness told committee there is no resilience there is no disposable income anywhere we are now relying on charities to help such people out I do not know how sustainable that will be for those charities the third sector as always is stepping up in the absence of proper government action the demand on it is increasing yet the SMP government has cut its overall funding in the last budget by over a million pounds I sincerely hope that it will choose not to repeat that mistake this year money advice Services too are being pushed to Breaking Point and they've made it clear that the more the prob the more the problem problem grows the harder they are finding it to prioritize those they support not long ago I visited a Citizens advice Bureau in canvas language supports my constituents I couldn't believe the amount of work they're having to do they were rushed off their feet and I want to take the opportunity to thank Sharon Hansen and her team at the bureau and staff at cabs right across the country for the work that they're doing referrals to these services are increasing yet there's been no increase in number of Staff available to deal with it which is exactly why Scottish labor is called on more funding to be directed to those Services they're the last line of defense for many people and we cannot leave them under equipped it's time the Scottish government ensure the tools are available to allow these services to deal with Rising demand and in the long term it cannot allow staff to burn out the Scottish government has perished to alleviate the suffering of soaring numbers of people in debt and this day's on an under-resourced sector it has a responsibility to do more to protect people and the committee's findings showed that it has purged to act in a number of areas which would address its effects in Scotland in September 2019 the minister for business Fair working skills pledged to take forward a wide ranging review of Scotland's debt solutions almost three years later the following serious shocks to personal finances that has not yet published its findings the Scottish government also promised a review of the Scottish welfare fund that that would commence in the first year of this Parliament but we're still waiting thing and it must expediate that given the current crisis I will Minister very grateful to the member again for giving we're just on the review of starts with the Direct Solutions as a member will be aware this was in three phases one was a an initial response to the crisis situation we face in the pandemic where recommendations were implemented there were further recommendations which we took forward as part of the coronavirus recovery um legislation we are considering further action and meeting the stakeholders later this week and starts with that Solutions the third aspect I will set out in due course but that is entailing a longer and wider and more comprehensive look at our statutory Data Solutions landscape I would want to assure the member and not only how we taking forward actions from that process indeed work has already been implemented and was indeed implemented during the pandemic Pam Duncan glancy I thank the minister for the intervention and I acknowledge the work that that group has done so far but as he acknowledged in in his intervention that phase three um is not yet set out in detail and we still don't know where that work is going to continue and families are facing this crisis today the Scottish government also um promised a review of the Scottish welfare fund and that that would commenced in the first year of this Parliament yet we're still waiting for that and it must expediate this I believe given the current crisis in doing so it should consider mechanisms to speed up the turnaround times for crisis applications to allow for quicker decision making and at the moment this takes around 48 hours which is a long time if you're cold and hungry Scottish labor have repeatedly called for more funding to be directed towards this fund as well the committee heard that the money currently available is being spent really quickly as more and more people turn to crisis commands that there is simply not enough to go around but these Solutions are just thickened plasters the welfare fund is meant to be an emergency leaver not the long-term answer to financial difficulty money advisors we spoke to were clear that people are using the welfare fund to cover the absolute Basics we can see that in the fact that over a third of applications are refused because they are repeat applications if things continue as they are it won't hold out for much longer which is why we need to see the government take further action with the future in mind one thing it could do would be to review the law around the amount of money serif officers are able to arrest from a person's account the minimum protected balance currently stands at a thousand pound as of today regardless of the source of income which means people are even losing money that they receive specifically for child care or housing costs via Universal Credit the Joseph Rangeley Foundation estimate that single person needs the equivalent of one thousand seven hundred and sixty eight pounds and 53 Pence take home pay per month for a decent standard of living current rules mean that people where people are having their money arrested they could be left with just over half of that that's before you even consider family circumstances or the potential additional cost of being a disabled person or having caring responsibilities it's no wonder that people are finding themselves In Perpetual crisis the government must consider making money advice a mandatory service to give the protection of long-term funding too not doing so means that an alarming number of staff for certain funded project funded and funded to deal with specific challenges let me limiting those available to deal with a wider context and prevent forward planning because services are unable to be sure what future Staffing levels will be Scottish laborers also strong Advocates of the breathing space policy which allows those facing Mental Health crisis to have this some to have some time free of being chased by creditors and we're disappointed that the government didn't acknowledge this in the response to the committee's report I'd strongly urge it to reconsider this and in doing so note the impact of not doing so on Mental Health Services in the NHS the report we're discussing today went further in its recommendations and I'm proud of it which I'm sure my colleagues will speak to and Scottish labor are proud to give these recommendations our support we know however that on many of them the government has suggested that they are working towards it and so we look for a quick update from the government on all of these areas one of the areas was on School Meal debt and we've heard about that already and I'm proud that Scottish labor-led South lineage the council has pushed ahead in the absence of government leadership to wipe off this day the government more local authorities to follow suit presiding officer people can't wait any longer what more will it take for the government to realize the gravity of the situation too many people can't afford to pay their bills or put food in a table they cannot afford to wait any longer thank you thank you very much we now move to the open debate I call First Emma Roddick to be followed by Morris golden for around five minutes thank you presiding officer there were honest four months and almost as many prime ministers since the social justice and Social Security committee published this report even as we carried out the inquiry events were overtaking us and Witnesses were having to react to news so much that I'm sure if I asked cpag and crisis to do the same questions that I asked them during the inquiry they would have a lot more to add the cost of living crisis has undoubtedly deepened recently and an attack from UK Tories on the economy and people on low incomes has made worse a situation which called for Action long ago instead of taking that action the UK government has ignored it tanked the economy putting interest in mortgage rates out of control and failed to act on Skyrocket in field costs which have seen bills more than double instead simply lining the pockets of energy companies and that's what we're talking about here is people trying to afford a roof over their heads food and warmth one constituent summed it up for me last week when she said it's not even the cost of living this isn't living it's the cost of surviving and before I get into the issues the report raises I do want to reflect on the the committee's work overall because it's incredibly meaningful to me to work on the committee in this Parliament which deals with scrutinizing policy aimed at tackling the worst things that I've been through personally having that lived experience myself I know how important it is that we inform policy through lived experience and I think it's right that we focus so much on this as a Committee hearing from individuals as well as organizations who help and represent them it's often difficult to listen to their evidence particularly from our experts by experience some of whom were still living in a very difficult period in their lives when they spoke to us and it's incredibly important that when we ask people to do that tell strangers about what they've suffered often with Associated trauma in the hope that it might change things that we really do take action off the back of it in Social Security perhaps more than any other portfolio in government it is clear that to go further as the SMP government and I and most here would like to do we have to break free of the UK and its Tory government's string of harsh and punitive welfare policies we heard consistently and clearly from Witnesses throughout the inquiry how much of an impact harmful UK Tory policies like the true child limit the cut to Universal Credit the under-25 penalty the list goes on had on putting them into poverty and keeping them there the impact is huge and when we announced that we were doubling the Scottish child payment that news came at the same time as the announcement that the Tories were slashing Universal Credit it was the largest overnight cut to welfare since world World War II so we are fighting against the tide in this place and every policy the Scottish government brings forward to help people seems to be matched or even outdone by the Tories going the other way and ripping money out of the hands of those who need it and I say this not just to have a pop at the Tory UK government although I am happy to do so but yes I'm grateful like a very negative speech he's making but I wondered would she actually welcome the fact that between the 23rd and the 30th of November there will be a cost of living payment of 324 pounds for people on tax credits is there anything she would welcome that the UK government are doing to help support people emeraldic I I genuinely struggle to respond to a comment that it's it's wrong to be negative about such a negative situation where you're discussing the situation that my constituents find themselves in because of UK government policies and it is very negative it's a negative experience to go through and yes will I will I welcome changes to to the UK government's uh decisions well absolutely but we can't rely on one month to the next what our overall budget will be because of these changes and given we can't borrow can't overspend that's that's a ridiculous State of Affairs to be in but as I was saying um I I outline these things because I genuinely think a lot of people don't realize how many of the levers we don't have access to and with the Tories downstairs becoming increasingly litigious around the Scottish Parliament taking decisions it sees us out with our remit our limited powers are an important bit of context in this debate we are beholden to our right-wing government that decides the high-level Social Security System design and worse our budget the Joseph Roundtree Foundation has estimated 1.5 million people have been plunged into poverty since the Tories took office that is outrageous and it shows that the cost of living crisis we are tasked with tackling is conservative made constituents have asked me that over the last year how a government could make such huge mistakes and I'm scared that the answer is that they're not mistakes because my experience of claiming Universal Credit and pip suggests that sanctions and punishment for being poor is exactly what is intended by this system presiding officer I'm proud of the work that's going on in the cabinet secretary's portfolio this term the work on equalities on preventing homelessness increasing tenants rights and tackling poverty is astounding before we even get to the Monumental changes being brought through by Social Security Scotland on adult disability payment they are a world away from what I'm used to dealing with through the DWP if anything proves that we can do better here it's that the Tories can pretend that anyone in the SMP is hiding behind reserve powers but anyone who thinks about it for 10 seconds or looks into it however briefly can tell that that is all it is pretense thank you very much I know called Morris golden to be followed by Paul McLean again for around five minutes Mr Goldman uh thank you uh Deputy presiding officer perhaps a rose between two thorns in terms of the speaking lineup I'd also like to thank the committee and the clerks for their uh report before the pandemic over 600 000 Scots were estimated to be over indebted as the pandemic raged citizens advice Scotland suggests that 60 000 either saw those debts get worse or were plunged into debt for the first time and the problem is likely to get worse Putin's invasion of Ukraine has seen Energy prices Skyrocket and households struggling with ballooning bills especially the most vulnerable and there and they are the ones most likely to face poverty and struggle with debt the committee report points out that disabled people face higher costs one in five individuals along with one in four families with a disabled child contained with extra costs of over one thousand pounds per month I also want to raise the impact of digital inclusion yes I thank the member for taking the intervention what is the member's view on on rumors that the UK government is considering means testing those essential benefits for disabled people Morris golden well I don't comment on rumors and that's a matter for the UK government and I would hope that the member can raise that through the appropriate channels which is about 500 miles south but I also wanted to raise the impact of digital exclusion representing rural communities I know how difficult it can be for them to access online resources and as the committee report highlights those digitally excluded may take longer to seek help with money problems a delay that can make these problems worse and with so many dealing with debt it's no surprise that advice surgery services are under enormous pressure the committee heard how they are and I quote stretched Beyond Breaking Point Deputy presiding officer the crisis facing families is bigger than any one political party so we need Scotland's two governments to be working together to help those most in need and I note the committee report recommends both the UK and the Scottish government continue to look at ways to tackle inflation Rising Energy prices and the cost of living crisis both governments have already taken action alongside the UK government yet happy to Siobhan Brown thank you I think the member for taking the intervention with policies such as a two-chailed cap the benefit cap five week wait and also the lower Universal Credit payments for parents under 25.
could I ask the member what impact these policies are having on people facing challenges with debt motor school well the UK government's energy build cup has helped the announced the 37 billion pound package to help families with the cost of living crisis and that needs to be focused on balanced against that you've got the Scottish government failed to eradicate fuel poverty in 2016 as promised SNP policy is to increase the the customers electricity bills through heightened transmission charges in order to subsidize predominantly big business that's the reality and that is the problem that SNP and green members have here in this Parliament they're not willing to stand up for their constituents and take the Scottish government who's failing Scottish families to task but I do welcome the Scottish government has committed 12.5 million to support debt income maximization Services I hope the Scottish government take note of the warnings in the report about the severe strain Money Services are under and also the committee's recommendation on specific funding for services supporting those suffering mental health issues the committee also recommends the Scottish government and causla look at interwriting off school meal debt my position and that of my party is that parents shouldn't be in danger of running up School meals debt in the first place so let's make School meals free for all children in primary and special schools if a cost of living crisis isn't the right time to do it then when is going back to my earlier comments on digital exclusion I know the committee urges the SNP government to support access to the internet through public spaces like libraries this isn't a luxury digital access is needed to apply for benefits and other government services but it's increasingly hard for councils to support such Services after years of underfunding by the SNP government just yesterday we saw the front page of the Courier warning a 51 million pound black hole in the Angus Council budget across Scotland local authorities have little option but to cut services and raise council tax a combination that only serves to pile more pressure on those already struggling what we really need is a long-term solution to help those trapped on low incomes whilst preventing people falling into debt to make basic needs that solution is ensuring full employment with high quality well-paid jobs my party's already offered ideas on this rapid retraining courses especially in the digital sector job security councils to provide meaningful opportunities deputies and officer the challenge myself and others are outlining here today are tough to tackle but not impossible we need both government to work together thank you very much indeed Mr Golden we've now exhausted most of the time we had in hand so interventions probably will have to be accommodated within your speeding allocation with that I call uh McLennan to be followed by Martin Whitfield for around five minutes Mr McLennan thank you Deputy presenting officer and thanks for the opportunity to speak in this this debate this afternoon as a member of this social justice and Social Security committee taking evidence for many groups and individuals was a heartbreaking experience at times the committed a loop to the challenges related to low income and debt in Scotland this must help the committee develop its priorities to work throughout the session and I think we've already picked up some of these points it already will develop these during the session main issues raised ever social stigma around a bit problem day due to the digital exclusion and accessing support services sign posting to free debt advice as referred the links between problem debt and health we heard from Jillian Martin the high cost of child care initiative with statutory day Solutions the issue of low-income and debt has of course wasn't since we held inquiry food inflation is now approximately 15 with some Basics increasing by up to 25 UK inflation rate is the highest rate in the G7 mortgage interest rates have rocket two-year fixed rates are now over six percent energy costs have of course massively increased by the UK government backtracking on its support package UK already has the worst poverty inequality levels in Northwest Europe the impact of brexit on the coast of the chlorine increases can also not go unnoticed soaring places and labor shortages are consequences of a decision that we in Scotland did not make only this morning the herald deported today the exports have dropped 13 since brexit last week I offered the oil labor msps opportunity stand up and advise me of any benefits of brexit to Scotland I look for that opportunity to tour the msps today there we go but exit is also making brexit is making people in Scotland poorer there is no doubt about that now we can all have political um discussions and talk about here today but I want to focus on some of the quotes for Witnesses in our sessions Peter Kelly from the poverty Alliance said we need to remember that the cost diving crisis comes on top of budgets already being stretched for people and low incomes during the pandemic which comes under from the fact that benefit levels were unfrosenal at the start of the pandemic which is a member of the context in which we're going to inquiry is one of the most significant that people are facing at this time we must bear that in mind when we think about Solutions Milesburg has talked about the impact of ventilation in his speech UK government must increase the benefit rates by inflation next year that's not being guaranteed by the new prime minister that has to be guaranteed and that has to be taken forward on the two chair limit and food banks Chris mckeckney from the child property Action Group said all families have been affected now however evidence from stressful trust shows that because more families have been affected by the two terms limit on benefits an increasing number of families they're doing the children are used in food banks which is impacting on early years of a child's life Illidan and Wells we've seen some service in 35 35 of people under 25 or young families may not be as sufficient enough to heat their homes this this year we think that there may be a direct correlation between Food Bank use and the two children said Kirsty on a universal credit on render your space stones made in Britain's Federation said the worst thing that was ever done was introduction of Universal Credit and handling the money to people in their hands I found it with energies have gone through the roof since Universal Credit was introduced officer the support variety today in Scotland is unique and enmatched across the UK the Scottish tail payment is unique to Scotland the most ambitious child poverty reduction measure in the UK from the 14th of November the five family payments including Scottish children could do worth over ten thousand pounds by the time a child reaches turned six and nine thousand seven hundred pounds for subsequent children that's an incredible help from the Scottish government in March the Scottish government also operated eight other Scottish benefits by six percent which was around about double in the 3.1 CPI which the UK government increases benefits by at that time and later the Scottish fiscal commission forecast the Scottish government is set to invest 4.2 billion pounds in benefit expenditure and 2223 providing support to over 1 million people money which will go directly to people who need it most and support people to live independent lives the Scottish government's second benefit ticket strategy published on October 2021 also said how the Scottish government is working to ensure people can access the sport they are entitled to physical facts about is essential and demand-led directorates such as Social Security at the moment the Scottish government is dealing with an inflation of impact producing budget by 1.7 billion pounds we have a fixed budget which is extremely limited borrowing Powers we need a realistic fiscal framework renegotiator the UK government could allow realistic foreign set up with agreed criteria at this stage right now at this particular status now and yeah we have Scottish labor who won't support this we will have the ridiculous position of Labor who would vote against getting this Parliament more piles to deal with this issue Scottish government support the most vulnerable and with the powers it has it could do much more as an independent country thank you I may call Martin Whitfield to be followed by Maggie Chapman for around five minutes I'm very grateful Deputy presiding office and it's a great pleasure to speak in this debate and can I start by extending my thanks and compliments to the committee and in particular the convener for this excellent report that covers so much that affects every one of our constituents day in day out in the short time that I have I'd just like to concentrate on a short aspect namely paragraphs 165 to 174 that deal with School Meal debt and I would like to start by thanking abalore for their evidence both to the committee but also to thank the committee for the weight that they gave it to this important matter I concentrate on this small part not because of the lack of importance that other matters raise in this report Merit but because it would be both a significant and I suggest simple step to alleviate the pressures both on our families but also the children a significant number who are fully aware of the situation where they choose to eat at school and the problems that that causes the family I welcome the conclusion at paragraph 172 with a recommendation the Scottish government works with kosler and local authorities to write off individual School Meal debt that allow families a clean slate as they move into a new school year and a need possibly into High School a completely new school setting this debt should not follow them and I also Echo the committee's call at paragraph 173 that they urge the Scottish government to implement its free School Meal expansion as soon as possible this Echoes of course Scottish Labor's call for the Scottish government to stop passing the buck provide funding for all local authorities to write off existing debt relating to the provision of School meals and deliver on their Manifesto commitment to roll out free School meals to all ages in Scotland's primary schools and this supports the conveners opening discussion in Her speech which I welcomed I do this and call for this on the basis of the evidence that abalore submitted to the committee and I believe it's right to put on the chamber record some of the facts that they found the concern at the level of school meal debt in schools across Scotland that indicate many families with children not eligible for free School meals are struggling to afford to feed their children the inconsistent approach across Scotland as to how individual local authorities respond to school meal debt and help and support families in such circumstances who may indeed be experiencing financial hardship there are fewer families eligible for free School meals than 20 years ago as a result of the income thresholds for eligibility failing to keep Pace with inflation and there's a real concern of a hidden School hunger particularly amongst our Secondary School pupils who do not receive the free School meals so often trumpeted and rightly so for primary one to five but not P6 to 7.
Free School Meal eligibility free schools come currently does not appear to benefit enough low-income families the income thresholds for free School Meal eligibility along with other benefits for families in receipt of child tax credits there's currently 17 0005 pounds 7920 for those in receipt of trial tax credits and working tax credits when these thresholds were first introduced back in 2002 the threshold was thirteen thousand two hundred and thirty and five thousand and sixty respectively those income thresholds have changed very little over the last 20 years in monetary terms they have failed to keep Pace with inflation during that time therefore it's clear the eligibility for free School meals particularly at secondary school has not kept up with inflation how often have we heard the call rightly so that the Scottish government the Scottish government's budget should be increased because of the inflation well here is an opportunity to show the Scottish government believe what they say by increasing these eligibilities at the very least by inflation and open up preschool opportunity free School Meal opportunities for those young people in our high schools so can I ask the minister will the Scottish government raise the eligibility criteria for free School meals in line with the historic inflation to ensure that more low-income Working Families receive this entitlement and reduce the likelihood of school hunger in our secondary schools and finally I've returned to this in the chamber on many times I will continue to do so article 27 of the uncrc provides for an adequate standard of living it states that parties recognize the right of every child to a standard of living adequate for that child's physical mental spiritual moral and Social Development this includes the right to food so when will this government bring back the uncrc to this chamber so that our young people can both recognize the rights the Scottish government and the Scottish people want to give them but possibly more importantly enforce those rights thank you Deputy presiding officer thank you very much indeed Mr Wakefield I now call Maggie Chapman to be hollowed by Douglas Lumsden for around five minutes Mr thank you presiding officer Britain and the United States are poor societies with some very rich people these are not my words but a headline from that well-known radical left-wing broad feat the financial times that is the reality we are living in communities where most people are to a greater or lesser extent struggling struggling struggling to eat enough of what they need to stay healthy struggling to stay warm to give their children what they need to get through the school day to sleep without that terrible jolting thump to the heart as they wake and remember the looming bills and for the poorest it's even worse last year the lowest earning five percent of households in Britain were 20 percent worse off than their counterparts not only in Norway and Germany and Switzerland but in Slovenia too these households these families couples and single people they aren't doing anything wrong on the contrary most are doing exactly what they've been told to do told will be their route out of poverty told will be their Pathway to the sunny Uplands of prosperity and peace of mind they are working but as the committee's report so vividly shows us that work and the Social Security to which our citizens are rightly and fully entitled are just not enough to keep our neighbors our constituents our friends out of the chilling Chasm of debt this isn't debt incurred frivolously on luxuries the rich take for granted it's food it's rent it's council tax and School meals the committee makes wise and sensitive recommendations about changes to processes attitudes resources and regulation but wider reforms are needed too reforms to both work and Social Security to Taxation and the fundamental question what is our economy for we need decent pay for everyone not just about manage if you take three jobs and never see your children pay but pay that means families can Thrive can pay their bills and still have a little bit left over can enjoy the short years of childhood instead of merely enduring them that means a genuine living wage and I'm proud that we are making good progress on that here in Scotland we need decent conditions work that brings security respect fulfillment equal opportunities and an effective voice for workers that's what the fair work agenda means and all work in Scotland sooner rather than later must become Fair work we need will through distribution and yes that means taxing the rich that might make some of us nervous but our constituents are way ahead of us the Scottish social attitude survey published yesterday showed 68 of people agreeing that and I quote government should redistribute income from the better off to those who are less well-off more than half of that 68 agreed strongly and only four percent strongly disagreed the Westminster government whatever iteration it's in today likes to talk about having a mandate that's 68 sounds like a very clear mandate to me equality is not just bad for the poor it's bad for everyone it's bad for individual health and well-being for communities for educational outcomes and economic success during the fleeting Fiasco of the Tory plan to scrap the 45 tax ban even City Traders were not dancing on their desks they were warning how pointless it is to be privately rich and publicly poor we need dignified respectful Humane and sensitive Social Security both in terms of its level of payments and of its processes we've endured years of toxic rhetoric from Westminster and the media deliberately inadequate systems and consciously cruel implementation that has literally cost lives I'm thankful that we as Scottish greens have successfully argued for the mitigation in Scotland or some of that bitter cruelty the bedroom tax the benefit cap the obscenity of the rape Clause there is much more to do and I and I know others are determined to do it one thing we really do need to progress faster is the implementation of a universal basic income something greens have long supported such we measure places dignity at the heart of our economy one's worth should never be measured by one's ability to contribute only economically our worth as humans goes far beyond being cogs in a labor market machine a universal basic income would also stop people getting penalized by the clawbacks of late or non-payments of debts the Scottish government's work on the minimum income guarantee is very welcome and we need to go further as soon as we can and finally we see we need opportunities for people to build better to co-create a shared future as well as securing their own livelihoods now a truly just transition to a future economy is one which brings everyone along with support for responsible small and large businesses with green jobs in the caring and creative as well as renewable sectors with employment that recognizes that we are first and foremost human beings Not Human Resources for that is what our economy is for to sustain us as people and the Earth We Stand upon if there are wealth creators they are certainly not the billionaires those are the wealth creators we should support thank you Miss Chapman and I called Douglas Lumsden to be followed by Karen Adam for around five minutes uh thank you president officer and thank you to the committee and clerks for producing this important report this Parliament is rightly spending a great deal of time discussing the cost of living crisis and its impact to our most vulnerable communities and I welcome today's focus on those with low incomes who are in danger of falling into debt we have many great organizations in Scotland who are working on this matter and I would like to particularly mention the work of Christians against poverty and its service to help people who are struggling with debt Emma Jackson their CEO and given evidence to the committee give some concerning figures a third of clients that Christians against poverty say that they regularly missed meals because they do not have enough income while a quarter are reporting that they're skipping putting the heating on and about 65 percent of the clients say that they had to borrow from family or friends to afford food or fuel and this situation is forecast to get worse over the winter in last week's debate I highlighted the work that the UK government is doing to assist the most vulnerable in our communities with our heating costs as well as measures to get more money into their pockets and I ran out of time uh last week presiding officer so I won't go over them all again as they attempt to finish on time today you'll be glad to hear and the committee makes many observations about action from the Scottish government that has been promised but as yet unfulfilled the committee welcomes the government's commitment to undertake a full independent review of the Scottish welfare fund and ask for that to be concluded and published as soon as possible and I understand that the review is now underway and I'd ask the minister to clarify the timetable of that review to the parliament today when he sums up and when can we expect to see its support its recommendations and will they be enacted in time to help those with the crisis over the winter and the committee has called for that to be completed before the end of the year and I'd like to hear the minister can confirm that this will indeed be published this year the committee has also called for causla and the Scottish government to work together to develop national standards for council tax collection and her evidence to the committee Emma Jackson again made this important point but in the response to the committee the Scottish government have once again passed the Box suggesting that they are not minded to legislate and this is a local government issue the whole purpose of a National Standard is that it's developed and agreed nationally so that someone in the freezing gallery has the same experience of council tax careers as someone in aberdeenshire it's not rocket science and it's long overdue the committee also recommends that the government move ahead with its three School Meal expansion as soon as possible the government's response says that they're committed to do so within the Parliamentary term but again there is no timetable and empty promises from the SMP green default government Poseidon officer I would like now to turn to the issue of early intervention and prevention councils are on the front line of our social care provisions and our best place for early intervention but the real term cuts of 700 million since 2014 has meant that their ability to provide services have been affected advisors and helpline staff who assist people in dealing with debt are cut to the Bone the phone lines often jammed and people are unable to get through to someone who can help audit Scotland of urged the Scottish government to develop a long-term planning approach to address child poverty and warned that our policies are focused on lifting children out of poverty rather than preventing it in the first place which surely should be the most single single most important Focus for any government yesterday Eleanor with them remember for taking an intervention I just wonder if you would agree with me that the best and you know I don't think your microphone's own is your card in stand there the best and quickest swiftest early intervention in this regard would be to provide a welfare state um that actually addresses poverty at source as opposed to having to mitigate it Mr Lumsden I think the member is missing the point completely what we what do you completely off what we what we want to have as a society where people aren't relying on welfare but have the jobs the the opportunities to to progress the best way to tackle poverty is by providing good education getting people into well-paid employment and growing our economy we want to see this Scottish government commit to developing schemes that provide employment for our young people we want them to tackle the root cause of poverty and we want them to focus on growing our economy to provide the opportunity our people deserve designers are inclusion I want again to thank all those organizations who gave such moving evidence to the committee about the people that they work with and the stories that they told we are facing a fairly difficult time with many households fearful of the future and how they're going to meet their bills and financial commitments this government should be doing all it can to address those needs but instead we get empty promises on diverse from politics blame someone else while saying there's nothing they can do we believe that there is much much more that the Scottish government can do including deliver on some of the promises of the past we want to see a fair funding settlement for local authorities so they can deliver the help and services required in our communities we want to see the free School meals delivered not promised debt Services funded properly economic growth and employment at the heart of government policy and an increase from the government on their day job the people of Scotland deserve our government that thinks about their needs rather than stuck in division and grievance thank you president thank you Mr Lumsden I now call Karen Adam to be followed by Michael Mara for around five minutes thank you design officer and I thank their committee for the work there are no words that adequately portray the frustration many of us feel at the moment and many of us have been doing all we can to try and mitigate against the unfolding catastrophe the Scottish index of multiple deprivation identified that in one of the local authorities in my constituency of aberdeenshire nine data zones within the 20 most deprived in Scotland all nine of these zones can be found in frisbra and peterhead which are both in the constituency of Hampshire and bucking Coast that I represent the sheet I held cost of living events and surgeries throughout the constituency to help people manage through this crisis inviting Social Security Scotland local authorities citizen citizens advice Scotland and food banks to work alongside me to provide urgent support and these these people came along to help an utter crisis caused by the UK government's policies under the Tory UK government inflation has run out of control mortgage rates are at their highest since the great financial crash and energy costs have doubled that is the Tory Legacy of government for 12 years yes Douglas Lumsden I thank the member for taking the intervention she mentioned fuel cost but should not agree with me that the the biggest um factor in that fuel cost Rising is actually the the war in Ukraine Karen Adam uh thank the member for his intervention and I would say to him that it's the responsibility of the government to provide stability to its citizens regardless of where that instability comes from just like the Scottish government provides stability while the UK government is unstable okay as the cash squeeze continues poverty worsens and financial struggle deepens we knows that we know that those with the least amount of money are made to pay the highest cost to live low-income families can't afford to bulk buy and create long-term savings on Goods but instead are having to borrow High interest loans to pay for basic food items and that's if they can even get access to credit they don't have the fallback of savings to dip into in a rainy day because every day is a rainy day the judgment and lack of basic understanding from the UK government who should know better is shocking to the extent that Supermarket chains such as Morrisons are offering free hot food such as potatoes and beans for those struggling if they use the code words and ask for Henry 315 years of the Union 43 years of neoliberal Orthodoxy and folk in peterhead of reservoir have to use code words at a supermarket chain to get a big tati with beans because they can't afford food the charitable impulse is decent but my goodness the necessity for it is absolutely no you've said enough there's no doubt that the cost of remaining in the UK has pushed people into poverty destitution and hunger and that Scotland needs the opportunity to break free the differences between the devolved Scottish government unreserved UK government are Stark and they seek to destroy the well-being of our nation we seek to build an Economy based on the well-being of our citizens at its very core even under the limitations of devolution the ambition and compassion of the Scottish government have seen us introduce many mitigations mentioned by some of my colleagues this afternoon these are the measurements of a government that values the well-being of its population many of the witnesses that the committee heard from welcomed so many of these options from the Scottish government and this has also been evidenced recently by the Scottish attitude survey which 74 of adults reported that they trusted the Scottish government to run Scotland's affairs Brazilian officer what I have detailed are some of the statistics and steps taken to combat the damage being done but behind each and every one is a story of personal tragedy for individuals families and children a concluding remark of a welfare officer who advises and supports people suffering from the unlevel playing field were people talk about the ability to heat or eat it's not an option anymore we're facing people that will suffer mentally and physically because they can no longer do either of those we do have the option of a better future though Scotland is a nation rich with energy world-renowned foods and agriculture sector and sustainable fishing industry and we will do so much better with the powers that come with Independence thank you seven I now call Michael Manor to be followed by Molly McNair for again for around five minutes Mr Matt thank you for saying officer can I begin by thanking colleagues in the social justice and Social Security committee for the work undertaken and producing this report the debate clearly could not be more timely reflecting on all the contributions we've heard so far people across my home city of Dundee in the whole of the Northeast are fearing the winter and the huge debts they know they will end up carrying the cumulative evidence of this inquiry shows what an extraordinary weight that is on the backs of those who can at least endure it with interest rates Rising even faster than expected due to the disaster of the Tory economic dogma of recent weeks in the grotesque and competence they've shown debt will have an even greater impact on families the cost of living crisis means that these impacts will be even more broadly felt across the income brackets and debt as we know is so often the trigger for crises and families we must do all we can to lift the important and that mental weight that comes with it and also the impossible choices that ensue the picture of Scottish poverty is a stark one an economy that does not work for so many ordinary Scots two in three single parents in Scotland with little and no savings to fall back on four and five parents with her baby reports and impact on their mental health because they are worried about money and nearly one in five households on low incomes in Scotland have gone hungry and cold this year and that is before we enter these winter months so with mortgage rates continuing to rise for thousands of people across our country day after day due to that touring mismanagement it's clear from the report's contents that many more will continue to struggle as the financial pressure of the cost of living crisis increases and the social justice and Social Security committee's report provides ideas to help reverse this increase in poverty and that's why Scottish labor supports the conclusions and the recommendations of the paper and with more people struggling to get by these questions must be answered not just in this report but every day by both the UK and Scottish government ministers what more can you do to help what more are you going to do to address the fuel poverty that so many people are experiencing the answer presiding officer is not another policy review or another consultation we've got plenty of those it's immediate action now immediate action like as the Committee reported the Scottish government making full use of its devolved powers to the fullest possible extent and as we enter an incredibly hard winter we do need practical solutions for low-income and debt that will help struggling families now and Scottish labor has presented a plan that if implemented now would make a positive difference immediately to people's lives our cost of living plans would wipe out School Meal debt provide funding for debt advice services and relieve people of some of their debt burdens these are real and practical measures that this government could take and we know that the actions in our plan such as wiping out the skilled meal debt will benefit up to 11 000 families but Scottish lever isn't just suggesting these things we're actually doing them in labor minority control these premature they've introduced the 4.4 million pound package to help tackle the cost of living crisis including direct support for the most vulnerable this winter support for those in communities facing isolation and loneliness support for the citizens advice Bureau allowing increased provision of money advice and benefits assistance for residents all of these things that Pam Duncan glancier Martin Whitfield have set out already today been put into action by labor counselors and that's just one Council doing whatever they can to help I know that councils across Scotland are eager to do more if they weren't staring down the barrel of devastating Cuts they would and could do more to help people who are struggling and this government could provide funds for money advice centers that can allow them to plan for the long term rather than the short term this precarious nature of one-year bits of grant funding here and there is incredibly difficult for the organization and there's been no extra funding to help with demands arising from the cost of living crisis as there was during the pandemic and that limits the ability to increase capacity and help the greater numbers we all know and we all hear daily are seeking support and advice from their citizens advice service and at a time when more people than ever are turning to these types of organization it's essential absolutely essential that we fund them properly so I do urge the Scottish government to move quickly and to take up the recommendations from this report thank you sitting officer thank you Mr Mara and I know called the last speaker at the open debate Murray McNair I to five minutes please thank you thank you for saying officer I welcome opportunity to speak in this debate on behalf of my constituents it isn't important debate at a time when many are struggling to cope with this course of living emergency the Westminster crashing of the economy has made a difficult and challenging time for many so much worse with inflation out of control mortgage is spiraling and the cost of fuel making people choose between Heating and eating I'm worried about the murdering situation of people having to borrow to pay for Essentials this isn't bothering to invest in the value of their properties or to buy for example a car to allow them to take up employment no this is boring to to actually eat to heat to close and to pay rent inside housing recently reported that more than half of social housing residents have used credit to cover essential household costs this is a vicious circle for many and simply unsustainable the Scottish government are doing much within the powers and budgets of this Parliament Scottish tail payment set at five times the amount other political parties were calling for the council tax deduction scheme more generous in other parts of the UK the mitigation of the bedroom tax the benefit cap the rent threes and I'm auditory on evictions the 20 million pounds Fuel and Security fund and millions more in discretionary housing payments to help families sustain their tenancies and at the heart of that a new Social Security System that's founded on Dignity fairness and respect contrast this with a Westminster system from governance of all political colors that you find and promoted stigma the private sector medical assessments they cause so much misery and pain the sanction regime used to horribly deny already an adequate subsistence levels and on the issue of debt residing officer a system devised to ensure claimants need to get out into debt to avoid going without the five-week wait and you retrokated does just that it forces people to take in advance and pay it back meaning Less in the future months see pegs evidence of the committee on the real impact of this is heartbreaking it fully captures our Westminster benefit system that's frankly setting people up to fail recite the case of a young homeless woman the ideally peer deducting 63 pounds 30 a month to recover an advance payment and there are also two other deductions of eight pounds 95 and 8 pounds 96 in this Leaf there were just 56 pounds and two pounds a week to live on this is senseless I'm therefore not surprised to read the report from the Glasgow University in the center for population Health that concludes that 20 000 excess deaths in Scotland are likely to be caused by Westminster impose austerity and yet we're still pleasing with Westminster to upgrade benefits in line with inflation the Joseph Roundtree Foundation has pointed out that food prices have risen faster than any point over the last three decades they also say that only operating benefits by earnings will leave the circle government responsible for the biggest permanent real life terms cut to the basic rate of benefit in a single year Westminster at the very least uh setup rate benefits by inflation and get the support needed to those ingredients need an officer the burden of debt will take a hit very soon for their own set of Christmas and I know many different conceptions are approaching it with bread there's so much Demand on family budgets at this time and I welcome the doubling bridging payment by the Scottish government that will give some assistance it is appalling however that the Westminster Christmas bonus is still set at 10 pounds and in 1972 the tourist introduced this payment and isn't astonishing that it's still set at 10 pounds today the field to operate it in government and the Liberals in labor didn't rush to remedy this either and it's estimated the Christmas bonus would be well and worth in excess of 100 pounds if it kept pace with inflation during this course of living emergency I call in the Tories labor the libs to join with me to demand that is operated by inflation and recalculated the value necessary to compensate for the last 50 years I concluded my usual mention and tribute to many food banks support groups advice agencies housing associations and Council services in my constituency I'm on their side and I thank them for everything they do thank you exciting officer thank you Miss McNair we will now move to closing speeches and I call on voice of chaudry to wind up on behalf of Scottish labor up to six minutes these Minister surgery thank you presiding officer I would like to thank my fellow members and clouds of the committee for their work in producing this report I think it is a report that we can all be proud of even if the situation describes a false for short of the ideal as a member of the committee I would also like to thank the many organizations who gave evidences to us for their invaluable contribution I agree with my colleague Palm Duncan glancy that it was an eye-opening experience the convener of the committee highlighted the section in the report relating to school Mills debt and my colleague Martin Whitfield noted how little the thresholds for free School meals have changed in the past 20 years I would certainly hope that the Scottish government would look at the aspect of this under its control and part of any effort to combat child poverty I must agree with Paul McLennan that it is incredibly important for that matters discussed in this report that the UK government ensured that benefits are operated with inflation and Maggie Chapman rightly noted the problem uh fundamental to those issues of low pay and in work poverty and the needs to address these I'm also grateful to Jillian Martin for highlighting the lack of data regarding poverty in ethnic minorities a problem we are all too often faced with in this place my colleague Michael Mara noted the value of Scottish levels cost of living plan and where Scottish labor Council have been doing great work to take real action on the cost of living if I may draw out what I see as a common theme that came up again and again in the Committee hearing the represented in this report this is the theme of false economy we have systems in place to try mitigate the effects of poverty to try to ease people out of debt but we can we can see where the failure to provide and promote early intervention can lead into even more costly interventions later Douglas lumsner noted this an example of this with eviction the committee here that there is no moral or business cases for threatening a tenant in areas with eviction the committee was told that the cost of eviction a single male with a low support needs is in the region of 24 000 per eviction we therefore begin to see a picture where every eviction is a failure the failure of the system that should have been there to help and did not the failure in short of the social safety net and this failure caused us even more in the long run Miles Briggs expressed his hopes that UK government policy on welfare could be looked at where the committee has heard that it perpetrates this effect with young parents and I welcome that we see similar problems in the approach of that messed opportunities which cost everywhere later we cannot afford monetarily or morally to apply this case carrying false economics across our society we clearly need intervention where they are most effective for people's lives and often this end up being more cost effective for the state as well so I would urge the Scottish government to think very carefully about as policy response to this report we must be vigilant against uh penny-pinching approach in this early interventions has already highlighted the impact of funding cars for the third sector organization on the front lines of this crisis the nature of this false economy means that trying to save money from early intervention service can mean catastrophic cost further down the line and this costs are greater cost to both government and to the real people's lives behind the figure and case studies we have now all heard about I hope the Scottish government takes a note of not only the scale of the challenges ahead which the committee has highlighted but also the Strategic thinking that will be required to deal with them thank you thank you Mr trade I now call on Jerry Balfour to wind up on behalf of the Scottish conservatives up to seven minutes please Mr Balfour uh thank you Deputy uh presenting officer I would like to begin as other colleagues by thanking all those who aided in reproduction of this report the convener my fellow members of the committee the clerks and of course everyone who came and gave evidence to us we've been a lot of work that's gone into this report and I hope that it generally comes out in meaningful policy change for the Battle of origin Scotland who are struggling I find the community leader out very helpfully when she said we need Westminster Scottish government and local government here in Scotland to work together and if I can see gently to those from the SMP features I think that has missed the point of today to simply spend every minute of your speech criticizing one of those three I'm not critiquing what is happening within local government and within Scottish government they show the weakness of the argument have Westminster got everything right no they haven't but either Scottish government or local authorities and if we need to move Beyond this everything bad at Westminster everything good by Scotland and we need these three groups working together in Partnership for the sake of the people of Scotland I want to thank all those particularly referred sex organizations who have sent briefings for this debate because I know if the report makes clear that there's a real and pressing issue in this country with debt with over 600 000 people in Scotland struggling of debt of various size is evidence problems simply is not going to go away there are key measures that can be taken in Scotland to move us towards that to help with what was that there's been a number of great contributions that have been made today but I want to focus on a couple of Reflections that I believe that are key to solving this crisis firstly there's a need to be person-centered to take debt and low-income issues not as one big issue but to break it down into individual issues we have to acknowledge that each case is different and doesn't fit in exactly into cookie cutter mode we need to look holistically across many kinds of departments to ensure income match management that people getting all the help that is available and that were entitled to give them that benefits are currently being provided both by DWP and Social Security Scotland it can often be difficult for claimants to be certain that we are getting all the support that is available to them any cabinet secretary Robson Jimmy Buffett will be aware that obviously one of the duties on ministers in Scotland is that they have to promote uh benefit entitlement does he agree with me that actually it would be very helpful if you the UK government were to take up the same position and actively promote the reserve benefits that are available to people to try and boost um awareness of entitlement Jeremy Belford I'll be able to give you your time back thank you and I mean we're like this we do need to promote all these benefits actually I have to say when I visited um job centers within my region here in lovian and when I've had conversations with gwp I actually do see quite a poor Act of approach clearly more can be done by both governments and I do think and I welcome what the cabinet should be I'm a minister for Social Security says is that um at the official level there is a good work in relationship and I think we have to recognize that and build on that because any stress or toil on people's mental health is good to eliminate Brazilian officer mental health is an issue that is closely like wrapped up with debt both as a cause and a symptom as report makes note of 2.5 million adults in the UK with mental health problem considering or an attempting to take their own life while be behind on payments during the pandemic 2.5 million my number is tragic and flows into short relief or burden that can bring for so many people are struggling in this way can have a mental health form completed by GP they can get better support and could help write off debt in Scotland GPS can charge around 25 pounds for this form but the rest of the UK they are banned from charging anything at all I was on cars from others for Scottish government commitment was banned to ensure that all barriers to access other moves from those that need vital support it's a small step by step that can be taken that we have a large effect especially in conjunction with wider mental health measures mentioned as we've heard from others today more must be done with campaigns and samples and as a Cabinet secretary said both from this government and from Westminster and local authorities let's have a look at what's happening on the ground lone parents women disabled people what the report says it says this 14.2 percent of people in Scotland were identified as being in problem debt but only 20.5 percent of this group sought advice from free debt advice provider Deputy percent officer we need to work harder on this and I've reached this point and I have other members it must have been in other debates because the cabinet secretary in regards to will she commit to meet with the third sector to talk about third sector funding for three years that commitment still hasn't been given by this government and I find that disappointing Deputy position officer we took evidence from those who are offering get advice who are worried about their own job going forward next year who are struggling with debt themselves this seems to be in a strange position to close depend officer I've given a couple of steps that could be taken by Scottish government to help the burden of debt that many are struggling with there is a danger that we go from this chamber this afternoon having had a debate made up political points and practice ourselves on the back but that would help my constituents that wouldn't help with people of Scotland who are struggling with debt what we need is to lay aside some of our ideology and say practically how can all of us Westminster Scottish Parliament Scottish government local authorities help to make things easier we need cross-party conversation we need cross-party working and maybe less political ideology when we speak thank you depression officer thank you Mr Balfour I now call on Tom Arthur minister to wind up on behalf of the Scottish government up to eight minutes please minister thank you very much presiding officer and can I begin by thanking colleagues from across the chamber for their contributions and what I thought was overall a very thoughtful and considered to be as merits such a substantive and a well-written report as has been produced before turning us specifically to the report I do want to take the opportunity to respond to the Mysteries that members have raised in the chamber um coming first Palm Duncan glancy had raised the issue of mental health and moratorium we did obviously provide a response with that in the uh response to the committee perhaps I miss hear the what the member said but I wish we want to clarify this is something that we have consulted on and we are considering seriously I would also draw the members attention to a program for government commitment to a bankruptcy and diligence bill in this session so I hope that does provides some reassurance umara raised a bigger pardon Martin in the first instance raised 2 issues with regards to a free skill mule debt unscrc I think you also raised the issue around eligibility I'm on the latter Point happy to reflector I would recognize that local governments do have a discretion around eligibility we have engaged with Partners on the issue of debt I would just note that we do operate with an extremely straightened fiscal circumstances and with regards to unscrc that is something we are engaging with the UK government on timetable will obviously be dependent upon that process and indeed what decisions Parliament wishes to take um when NFL legislation is a re-introduced yeah I'm happy to Martin Whitfield I'm very grateful Deputy presiding officer with regards to the actual eligibility criteria it does rest with the Scottish government to increase the earnings amount that would bring those families and particularly those children um into secondary in secondary school within the remit of free School meals which would make a substantial difference at this time um would the minister undertake to look perhaps again at that maybe push other interested bodies to try and Achieve that sister and I can give you your time back thank you very much about specific portfolio responsibility doesn't sit with me I'm happy to consider it but I would just stress that Public Finance Minister be extremely challenging physical environment which we operate but I recognize this instead of the points that the member raises um Maggie Chapman made a very thoughtful contribution and I think she got to the heart of us we obviously want to move to a situations where rather than having to react and redistribute we do have an economy that pre-distributes and works at all and of course that is a medium to long-term aspiration but it does not of course detract them and need to take action in the here and now to support people at least the most interesting of times Douglas Lumsden asked with regards to the welfare fund review my colleague the minister for Social Security and local government will be updating the committee soon on that particular matter and finally Michael Mara had raised the issue of support for advice services for providing 12.5 million in support for advice services I'm sure the member will correct me if I misheard him I believe he said that we had not provided additional support we have we're providing an additional 1.2 million pounds to enable expansion of energy advice Services publicly just one General point it's been raised by a number of members which is regards to three-year funding and funding for local Authority resources I am not going to rehearse all of the arguments we will no doubt have over the coming months as we move into the budget process but the reality is that we find ourselves in a position as the sfcs have indicated that we have a real terms cut to our budget and that hasn't of the course necessitates difficult choices which have been compounded by the reality that we have ident erosion over budget in year of 1.7 billion pound notwithstanding now there is there real terms increase in the total funding available for local authorities we set our aspirations around longer term funding through the rsr but as members will appreciate the biggest determinant of funding available to this Parliament is still decisions taken at Westminster by the UK government and given if I can put it politely the volatility we're seeing Minister and the uncertainty evacuates their problems for us having long-term funding which Cascades down here so giveaway to the member I actually Minister for giving away I mean he would recognize that civil servants teachers doctors are guaranteed funding for three years so why is the third sector different from that I think the member makes them an important point we obviously have within government their legal commitment for things that we have to fund but the reality is to provide certainty for the Scottish government to be able to provide more certainty we require more certainty and as members will be aware as I don't want to labor this point but we are very much dependent under the fiscal framework upon decisions on public spending taken by the UK government and is a member will appreciate we are in a period of extreme uncertainty and we will not have more clarity until the 17th of November and where we awake to see what comes out of that the mood music just now is it was going to be a significant change that this is going to potentially be a return to austerity so it evacuates an almost impossible situation for us that could give you numbers but these numbers could become completely meaningless the other side of the 17th of November now presiding officer I do want to turn to the the committee's inquiry because it's report brought in to start Focus they face many Scots are paying uh for living um under a UK government that has overseen growth and inequality and poverty that long three days the current cost crisis and as we have now been hearing brexit has made and is making and will continue to make all others poorer and the economic chaos of visited Upon Us by the mini budget will be filled by families and individuals for many years to come exacerbating The Challenge and circumstances whether we were already facing everyone is hearing of friends and relatives now facing eye watering increases in their mortgage payments inflation and everyday Goods like food is at record levels and shows a little sign of a betting and for the rising the energy cost is a global phenomenon the Westminster government is doing less than others including ending the energy Place guarantee in April something that appears to be a direct consequence of The Reckless decision taken decisions taken at the many budget and as a consequence more Scots are at risk of robbing Peter AP poll but this is not the approach that this snp-led government has taken our commitment to Fair work seeks to give people an effective voice opportunity security fulfillment and respect and it's also been shooting at work pays and offering a route out of poverty that is sustainable that is one reason why we are providing an additional 140 million pounds every year to local government to help them Reach a pace settlement for their employees which provides more support for those on the lowest incomes it's a good example of this government doing is the cabinet secretary for social justice made clear on our opening remarks all that we can with the powers that we have to tackle poverty protect people from Financial harm and mitigate the effects of well Tories being tourists at Westminster I apologize I'm really impressed for time now having responded to the interventions our response to the committee's report was published in September setting out a significant range of actions being taken by national and local government and partner organizations to improve the lives of everyone on low income problems and facing problem debt some of these have been mentioned today including three billion pounds allocated this year to mitigate increasing costs in households one billion of which is only available in Scotland a package of family benefits which is more generous than an England and in Wales including the Scottish child payment which later in November will have increased by 150 percent in less than eight months the unique baby box now in its fifth year with nearly quarter of a million delivered across Scotland an additional 150 million pounds provided to children in receipt of three skill meals last year and this through bridging payments with a December payment being doubled to 260 260 pounds 88 million distributionally housing payments to support households with housing costs predictions against increasing rents and eviction action through the tenant protection Bill 12.5 million pounds invested this year in advice services and a further 2.3 million for the earlier resolution and advice program and we also have an important story to tell on financial tax reduction can tax reduction schemas effectively Scotland's oldest protection measure and has been in place since 2013.
Currently 450 000 households benefit from this on average resulting in savings of 750 pound per year for recipients however as the committee says though there is more that could be done to make people aware of their entitlement supporting those experiencing difficulty in paying council tax and creating greater consistency in collecting Council of tax so I undertake to fully explore with kosler how we might take forward the committee's recommendations in this regard Scotland has also developed a set of first item protections and statutory debt solutions for people facing issues of problem debt with debt advice at the heart of these mechanisms we identified and responded quickly to the course crisis as we did during the pandemic and already introduced a number of protections for people who are most financially vulnerable we have reduced bankruptcy application fees and removed all fees for those on certain benefits introduced in response to the plan endemic but now made permanent we have increased the moratorium period giving individuals six months breathing space to take advice free from Predator pressure this is also now permanent we've increased the level of debt required for the Creditor to pursue bankruptcy for the courts now fixed at five thousand pounds as compared with three thousand pounds throughout the pandemic and from today the protecting minimum balance that can be retained from a bank arrest and an exact security Rises to one thousand pounds promoting greater Financial resilience the committee rightly highlighted the strong links between problem debt and mental health and as I said to the Mr Duncan Clancy I can assure members that we are working across government to design and Implement bespoke protections for people experiencing financial and Mental Health crisis producing Office of the hugely successful direct a debt Arrangement scheme or Das Remains the UK's only statutory dietary payment scheme recent improvements have increased uh that have seen increased participation bringing important protections for those taking control of their that and I can confirm that more action is planned on flexibility I recognize it can be challenging for people paying towards their debt through Das and the current economic chaos will be amplifying those challenges the committee has with a number of recommendations relating to fees and debt ceilings and I will consider all of these carefully not least to a stakeholder Roundtable later this week but I can announce that I plan to bring forward additional protections to help people manage and paying their debt later this year and I also look forward to discussing these issues at my stakeholder Roundtable meeting later this week including the office I want to thank the committee members and everyone who gave evidence for the input to and extensive workerness inquiry most importantly we should all be grateful to everyone who shared there at times harrowing experiences of debt and financial insecurity I do not underestimate how traumatic reliving those experiences will have been for some but I hope that they know that we hear them they have been listened to and where we can do more we will do so and I also find colleagues for their contributions to this debate it has provided us all with a somber opportunity to reflect on the precious Festival households across Scotland but it doesn't have to be this representing officer Scotland is a wealthy country with a government who works hard to do the right other people we have lower taxes and water charges presiding officer where there's much more that we can do I recognize growing up in the area either in Scotland the difference to having a Scottish Parliament has made compared to what the situation was for my the people who grew up in Mars 40 years ago thank you with Independence present officer we can do so much more thank you and I now call on Natalie Don to wind up the debate on behalf of the social justice and Social Security committee up to seven minutes please miss Dunn thank you thank you appreciating officer the Striking evidence taken during the committee's inquiry and the contributions which have been shared in this afternoon's debate have been very powerful I'm pleased that we've had the opportunity today to reflect on both the social justice and Social Security committee's important report and The Wider context of the course crisis which is causing significant hardship across Scotland we've heard substantial accounts from colleagues in the committee which have served to highlight the start and at times really difficult accounts that we heard from our experts by experience Witnesses and third sector organizations and I'm grateful for the contributions from all members today across the chamber and from the government I'm also grateful to the clerks for all their work associated with this inquiry as we've heard this afternoon I would inquiry highlighted a number of specific challenges faced by people who are struggling with both low income and debt member speeches have covered a lot of areas such as the wide scope of this inquiry and I'll try to capture some of these points in my closing comments as the convener stated earlier the evidence that we received around public sector debt and council tax day it was striking there are examples of councils working with people in a holistic way and working with each other across local Authority departments to join the dots of day old for housing or council tax or School meals and put individual support in place but this is not true across all authorities some councils are taking proactive steps to write off specific dates and work on debt management with clients however there is a feeling that others are making up for lost time during the pandemic and pursuing debt in a very proactive and at times aggressive way we know that people can be scared to answer the telephones or to answer a knock on the door and we know that can cause worry anxiety and a deterioration in mental health a consistent and compassionate approach is needed across all Council areas a number of today's contributions are focused on free School meals and rightly so our inquiry shows that with the current accrual of school meal debt families are struggling to feed their children now we welcome the Scottish government's commitment to expand free School meals to all primary school children but urge the Scottish government to implement its free School Meal expansion as soon as possible and encourage local authorities to finalize the works to allow the expansion to be delivered by combining the individual write-off of existing School Meal date and preventing future accrual of debt in this area we can eliminate this public debt which only burdens low-income families moving on I want to highlight evidence received on the relationship between debts and mental health mental ill health can be both a cause and a symptom of debt problems creating a vicious cycle which can be extremely difficult to break there are many challenges in providing money advice to people with mental ill health but it should also be an important consideration in Service delivery the majority of our experts by experience noted the impact of debt on their mental health through things like anxiety and depression and they felt that mental health impacted on their ability to deal with their debt situation as the minister alluded to earn his closing remarks people with debt problems in Scotland have the opportunity to enter a moratorium on diligence which stops creditors being able to take down enforcement action against them the committee called for this to be adapted to provide better help for people with Mental Health crisis we hope that practical proposals will be brought forward as a result of the Scottish government's consultation on debt solutions and diligence looking also at physical health the committee took evidence that people living with disabilities face Higher Living costs and are more likely to live in poverty contributions by the convener of Health and Social care committee Jillian Martin echoed this and some of the stories she shared were sobering highlighting the extent and outcomes of increased spending that those with poor physical health and disabilities are currently experiencing no one should be falling into debt to keep either them or their family members alive for some people with low incomes bankruptcy may be the only way to get a clean slate we looked at the statutory date Solutions available to people with low incomes to see if any changes should be made to this legislative framework here we made recommendations around application fees for bankruptcy and minimum debt thresholds and I note the opportunity for quick action through the Scottish government's consultation on debt solutions and diligence digital exclusion is another area which has been picked up on by numerous members today and it's something that was highlighted regularly within the committee evidence stations we heard that this is holding people back from accessing debt advice applying for jobs and benefits the committee has asked the Scottish government what measures it is taken to support access to free internet services and devices in public spaces we've also asked the Scottish government to work with the UK government and stakeholders to consider if a model similar to that used during the pandemic could be developed to allow free access to trusted money advice websites we welcome the Scottish government's commitment to enhanced funding for connecting Scotland which can provide free internet access for up to two years for those most in need for the remainder of this parliamentary session but overall urged the government to consider how it can support low-income households to continue to access and interconnect sorry an internet connection in the longer term because it is absolutely vital that families making difficult budgeting decisions are not forced to sacrifice internet access when online connectivity provides an essential Lifeline to many services I would inquiry in today's debate have highlighted a number of key areas where we may wish as a committee and as a parliament to undertake further more in-depth scrutiny in the future we thank the Scottish government for its response to our report and look forward to receiving a response from kozla and the UK government to AIDS our discussions on next steps in isolation some of the committee's recommendations might seem small but collectively they could make a significant Improvement to people with low incomes who are trying to manage problem date change would acquire cooperation between local authorities as well as the Scottish and UK governments change would require us to listen to people's experiences on the ground with compassion and empathy for change we need to reach out to people and offer support and not always expect them to know where to go and what to ask As One debt advisor told us during our inquiry a lot of people fall into debt due to a change in circumstances like a relationship breakdown bereavement losing a job or having a child people don't decide to spend spend spends and then be in debt the idea of willful debt is a myth or certainly in the clients that I see this is not fair there should be no Stigma to being in debt everyone deserves the opportunity for a fresh start thank you president officer thank you Miss Don that concludes the debate on robbing Peter to pay Paul low income and the debt trap it is now time to move on to the next item of business according to border Alex School Hamilton thank you very much Deputy presiding officer um I would like to seek your guidance on the procedures surrounding the correcting of the official reports on the 29th of September the first Minister told the chamber that under this government we have a position where our net energy consumption is already provided by renewable energy sources that is of course not true indeed Liam Kerr raised the point of order at the end of fmqs asking whether the record would be corrected however outside this chamber it's the statistics that has been misrepresented before the first Minister said on the 1st of November 2021 we virtually decarbonized our electricity Supply just short of 100 of all the electricity we use is from renewable sources John Swinney on the 7th of September this year said we've now got 100 self-sufficiency and our electricity requirements from Renewables Ian Blackford the same week said almost 100 of our entire electricity production comes from Renewables I of course appreciate that those further examples are not matters within the deputy presiding officer's purview but I do believe it is of relevance that there is a pattern of misrepresenting this statistic it's a statistic that is at the very heart of the issue of Scotland's energy security and therefore one that is of relevance to the energy bills of millions of people in these uncertain times the ministerial codes quite clearly says it is of Paramount importance that ministers give accurate and truthful information to the parliament correcting any inadvertent error at the earliest opportunity ministers who knowingly mislead the parliament will be accepted to offer their resignation to the first Minister point five of the guidance on the correction of inaccuracies on providing on information provided in parliamentary proceedings states that if a member realizes after an item of business has ended that a significant error has been made for example one which may affect the conclusions which listeners would draw from the debate which I believe Matt is here the member may ask to make a statement during their next available plenary session that is in addition to the steps outlined in point nine which include writing to the presiding officer and the member who drew attention to the need for correction can I therefore ask Deputy presiding officer on two points firstly on what date the correction was made by the first minister to the official report and secondly whether the opportunity to provide a statement to this Parliament regarding that correction was requested by the first minister um I think Mr Cool Hamilton for his points as the member knows if any member realizes that they have provided incorrect information in the chamber the member can request a correction to be added to the official report I understand that that indeed has happened in the instant case the guidance also sets out the steps that should be taken to make other members aware when a correction has been made it is the responsibility of the member making the correction to ensure such steps are taken on another point that the the member raised I am not aware of whether there has been any request to make any statement and in Broad brush I would say that the adequacy or otherwise a parliamentary rules of procedure are not of course the matter for the chair but rather are of course a matter for the parliament as a whole thank you it is now time to move on to the next item of business the next night of business is consideration of business Motion 6557 in the name of George Adam on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau on changes to tomorrow's business any member who wishes to speak against the motion should price their request to speak button now and I call on George Adam minister to move the motion thank you protecting officer and moved thank you minister no member has asked to speak against the motion therefore the question is that motion 6557 be agreed are we all agreed we are all agreed and the motion is therefore agreed to there is one question to be put as a result of today's business and the question is that motion 6374 in the the name of Elena whitam on behalf of the social justice and Social Security committee on robbing Peter to pay Paul low income and the debt trap be agreed are we all agreed we are all agreed and the motion is therefore agreed to that concludes decision time and we will now move on to members business I ask members who are leaving the chamber to do so quickly and quietly thank you foreign