I ' ve never ever attempted that, yet I ' m told it ' s fun.And with that, Dudley, allow me transform points over to you. Much more than statewide,'and those of you that are in my course tomorrow, he ' ll come in as well as talk about the job they ' re doing throughout the country in repossession prevention, yet actually a trailblazing Institution, as well as Wayne is the amazing leader and inspirer of minds to assume about our communities and also what needs to be done there.I ' ve had the enjoyment of serving on the board of New Jersey Area Funding, probably going back to 2003 as well as I simply recently, so I need to ' ve updated the biography, simply recently had to mandatorily rotate off of Wayne ' s board, yet I was board chair for Wayne for the last 5 years and saw him do amazing things at his company. I need to thank Dudley because he ' s been our coach as well as an outstanding leader at New Jacket Community Capital.He ' s one of those uncommon people that if you stated his name around the country, Dudley, you wear ' t also have to say his last name, it ' s like “LeBron”.
I ' ve never tried that, yet I ' m informed it ' s fun.And with that, Dudley, allow me turn points over to you. More than statewide,'as well as those of you that are in my class tomorrow, he ' ll come in and chat concerning the job they ' re doing across the nation in repossession avoidance, but truly a trailblazing Establishment, and also Wayne is the remarkable leader and inspirer of minds to assume regarding our neighborhoods and also what needs to be done there.I ' ve had the satisfaction of serving on the board of New Jacket Community Funding, possibly going back to 2003 and also I just recently, so I should ' ve updated the bio, simply lately had to mandatorily revolve off of Wayne ' s board, but I was board chair for Wayne for the last 5 years as well as viewed him do remarkable things at his organization. You ' ve worked at a CDFI that broadened country wide to bring little company financing, which is most likely one of the hardest things to do in the area advancement room on equilibrium sheet, non government subsidized small organization borrowing throughout the country.How were you able to really make sure you ' re having the neighborhood influence all the means on the ground, versus there ' s so many layers to what we do? Let me state, it ' s actually an advantage to be right here today as well as part of what I wish is that we can interest and draw in even more young ability into the field of neighborhood growth as well as that ' s certainly a goal at New Jersey Neighborhood Funding as well as I ' m thankful to talk to anybody who desires to after this. I need to thank Dudley since he ' s been our coach as well as an impressive leader at New Jacket Area Capital.He ' s one of those unusual people that if you discussed his name around the nation, Dudley, you don ' t even have to claim his last name, it ' s like “LeBron”.One of the points that ' s a really important component of area growth, I think, that we ' ve found out over time, the sector has actually progressed to, in combination with the non profit neighborhood, is building the ability of those organizations that may be doing work that for some reason or another, financial institutions can ' t do or won ' t do. It ' s paradoxical right after the ' 60s we had this whole team of individuals that produced the area advancement activity, yet it appeared like there was a misstep in generations or half generations where it didn ' t appear like lots of individuals were attracted to the field.But now, we ' re seeing a turn … At New Jacket Area Funding, one of the major goals we have is exactly how do we maintain as well as attract talent in the field? That was many years back, wage varies adjustment, yet the reality is that, especially in the CDFI world, I ' ll inform you, in the CDFI world, we ' re about numbers.We ' re doing real estate, we ' re doing little company, we ' re doing real estate, we ' re doing commercial advancement.
One of the things that ' s a truly essential element of community advancement, I think, that we ' ve discovered over time, the sector has actually developed to, in combination with the non revenue community, is constructing the ability of those companies that might be doing work that for some factor or another, financial institutions can ' t do or won ' t do. As you ' ve seen, this past week, CFPB has been in the news fairly a bit; there are intended to be changes there and also I ' m praying that doesn ' t always affect 1071. It ' s ironic right after the ' 60s we had this whole team of individuals that developed the community advancement movement, but it appeared like there was a misstep in generations or fifty percent generations where it didn ' t seem like several individuals were drawn in to the field.But now, we ' re seeing a turn … At New Jacket Community Resources, one of the major objectives we have is how do we preserve and also bring in skill in the field? That was lots of years earlier, income varies change, but the reality is that, specifically in the CDFI globe, I ' ll inform you, in the CDFI world, we ' re regarding numbers.We ' re doing housing, we ' re doing small company, we ' re doing actual estate, we ' re doing industrial advancement. That is a powerful program that ' s been accountable for not just creating great projects, and also NJCC ' s obtained several allocations over the years and it would harm projects, however it additionally hurts non revenues, the CDFIs, since those tasks are one of the few ways that CDFIs as well as various other non earnings are able to obtain unlimited cost revenue in significant amounts, so it ' d be like a dual whammy.As well as for everything I'' m seeing as well as ideally this will alter, it doesn'' t appear that the New Markets Tax obligation Credit history will certainly survive either with these expenses. Low Earnings Real estate Tax obligation Credit scores will endure, but it will be diminished unless there'' s some last minute change to what'' s been recommended. And also Dudley, it may go without stating yet the Low Earnings Real Estate Tax Obligation Credit Scores, when you speak about that it'' s the primary resource of equity for cost effective housing.That ' s economical'rental real estate. Affordable rental housing, yes. That'' s for people who aren ' t gon na own their own home. Yet'they ' re occupants and also that ' s actually gon na harm. I entirely concur with Dudley. The historic tax obligation credit histories are one more program that ' s in jeopardy under the tax obligation costs yet the personal activity bonds, at least in New Jacket, with the removal of tax obligation excluded personal activity bonds, would be devastating because that actually, in essence, removes the 4% tax obligation credit score for low earnings housing jobs. We struck our quantity cap every year as well as to eliminate it, I just wear'' t also recognize just how much it would truly diminish our ability to create budget-friendly real estate. The various other thing, less so, is New Jersey is a high tax state and also so the elimination of the state as well as local tax obligation reduction would clearly have an impact.They ' re
gon na cap residential property tax obligations at $10,000, at the very least, I guess it'' s gon na most likely to reconciliation. Not so much in the low income communities, however as we think of fair share real estate as well as attempting to bring inexpensive real estate right into greater opportunity areas, which is a crucial conversation also, I might see that also having an impact. As well as there'' s also a plunging impact. I can ' t remember if they top charitable donations however when you ' re topping philanthropic contributions, capping deductions individuals can take, particularly in high expense locations, that'' s gon na undoubtedly have a result on just how much individuals are donating to non earnings and so forth, so it all fits together.I would additionally
believe that the personal earnings tax obligation reduction, the residential property taxes, real estate tax obligations, would have a significant impact as well as not only in high expense states. Among the reasons I'' m really worried regarding that also is sometimes people believe that the only individuals who reside in lower income communities are lower income individuals, and also it'' s an unsafe incline since then, in many cases, when non low earnings individuals are getting in lower revenue systems, you ' re speaking about gentrification, yet what we desire is not to have focused destitution. We wan na have combined revenue neighborhoods and also it'' s not just the areas that will endure yet the families.And so this restriction, which will certainly be irreversible in the tax code, would be truly concerning to me. Can a non panelist include to your list? Sure canister. Yeah. The panelists, I think, have done a phenomenal task explaining the play area in tax but there are additionally earnings effects as well as health and wellness effects in the tax code that circulation through overmuch low revenue neighborhoods. If you take a look at the removal of the ObamaCare protection that is recommended in the tax obligation regulations, the Congressional Budget plan Workplace approximates that it would affect about 13 million modest and also primarily reduced revenue homes and also there would certainly be rather significant results in the area. With triggers on Medicare as well as Medicaid under the withdraw, under the trigger stipulations, those would certainly have disproportionate influences on reduced and also moderate earnings neighborhoods. Asset. Alright, the next question.Well, prior to I begin
, simply wan na present myself. My name is Gabrielle Horton. I ' m a second year Master ' s trainee below at the Ford College of Public Law. Thank you all for joining us. Thank you, Dudley. I assure that very first concern was not us trying to rip off on our memo that ' s due tomorrow. It was from the audience. However a little bit of a comply with up to that question: Wayne discussed new shipment systems as well as, Dudley, you additionally meant the intricacy of current systems so if the tax obligation reform does experience, what do these brand-new systems really look like? If one of you wan na type of take that, that would certainly be wonderful. I assume the most basic part of that is, on the Reduced Earnings Real estate Tax obligation Credit report side, it simply indicates even more subsidies are gon na need to originate from state and also regional governments.The program is inherently embedded with aid, yet that subsidy obtains expanded in up until now that the more competitors, the extra valuable the debt is, the a lot more exclusive equity, personal bucks are gon na can be found in, also. And if you devalue the credit rating, which would occur under this proposition, that implies there ' s gon na be much less equity per job, so the government ' s gon na need to do less with the same amount of aid dollars. We ' re gon na have to spread out those dollars around to less jobs, which is unfavorable however it ' s probably the only way the market will clear.That ' s the most significant one, in my mind, that ' s gon na occur. State federal governments are gon na have to
do fewer tasks with the subsidies that'they have. States are gon na have to do with less sources as well as they ' re in a starved setting as it is, and also to give you a feeling of that … And part of it ' s national politics however component of it'is appropriations. In 2005, I think, we committed New Jacket $ 600 million for affordable housing programs. Several of it came from the federal government with the Residence Program as well as CDBG as well as others. In 2014, New Jacket devoted $50 million. In the meanwhile, 37%of our tenants are drastically housing price burdened, implying they spend even more than 50% of their earnings on housing, which crowds out things like food as well as health and also things of that nature, so it ' s that flow down effect that non earnings need to truly rethink the way they do business.They need to become much more business. Can ' t depend on aid programs and we require them.
Don ' t obtain me incorrect. Yet'if we ' re gon na kick back and wait for a program,'we ' re not gon na get a lot'done, so it ' s gon na really, I assume … It does have a large influence on, I think, on our non earnings area advancement companions, that develop a great deal of this job. Can you talk concerning how your organizations, specifically, are resolving food justice and food access? It ' s on our mind particularly as we ' re considering Puerto Rico and also several of the recent catastrophes. When I was at'Chase, we spearheaded with the team called The Reinvestment Fund in Philly, spearheaded the initial … Or coined the term Food Desert, this was 2003, I think. There was a state senator in Pennsylvania that involved the Reinvestment Fund as well as claimed, “Look, I simply got the legislature to offer you$5 million grant so you can start going throughout the state in position that wear ' t have appropriate fresh food and also points like that, to build supermarket.” No person ever considered it, no one had ever before done it, and I obtain a call from Jeremey” Nowak and also Don Hinkle Brown back then, and claimed, “Look, we need you to help us created financial resources.” So, we took that $5 million as well as we utilize that right into a, I think, a$35 million fund, I can ' t remember now, it ' s as well long, but I think that ' s right.And that ' s where we started with that said. Quick ahead to a couple of years back, as well as the First Girl of'the USA, Michelle Obama, made one of her crucial campaigns this entire point regarding healthy and balanced foods as well as a great deal of the industry has jumped on that and they ' re dealing with that, to the point where we had a large launch occasion at the White House as soon as. Once again, at Chase we assisted lead a$100 million fund with The California Endowment and also Resources Influence Partners as well as a few other, to do fresh food grocery shops across California. The initiative wasn ' t as effective as we desired it to be, but it was still a large effect, and I assume the treasury, the CDFI Fund, currently provides CDFIs bucks and also has a program especially targeted at fresh food. You see a great deal of CDFIs, others, and also banks partnering on that. It went from being a pioneering idea, The Reinvestment Fund, to being a part of the infrastructure of the CDFI industry. I believe that ' s what ' s so excellent about the work that non earnings and CFIs are doing, mentioning what Lela talked regarding what'occurred with the banks internally.A great deal of times, we would certainly do R&D internally for products that became mainstream, yet products within the financial institutions.
Same point ' s happening for CFI. CFIs may yet at some time or one more R&D or program that end up being something mainstream throughout their industry too.'Among things I appreciated a lot regarding that program, the Fresh Foods Campaign as well as reacting to food deserts, is that it was a long-term option, it was an investment in neighborhoods sometimes that hadn ' t seen a grocery store ever, that only had bodegas or grocery store, or that hadn ' t had a new retail outlet for food shopping in decades. A great deal of times what we have, and also it ' s extremely important however it ' s not a long-term service, is a reaction to a certain calamity, which comes in the kind of humanitarian bucks and also setting in motion volunteers to aid. But after the emergency situation has actually passed, we put on ' t have a long-term option to providing food, to providing work, to offering a neighborhood economic engine.And so having an effort like the one that Dudley spoke of is seriously vital to the long term viability of communities. And I think that ' s a vital item that I didn
' t think of, due to the fact that the response to Fresh Foods did that. Those things that Wayne and his group is servicing, likewise, they ' re attempting to develop not simply … Due to the fact that the job that Wayne ' s doing actually resulted first out of Superstorm Sandy, which was clearly a large issue on the East Coastline and a lot of individuals came close to New Jacket Community Resources to do some emergency situation job about, “What can you do?” Which was, I assume, part of the bacterium, not totally, yet part of the bacterium of concept for the other concern regarding, “Well, let ' s try to determine how we buy things wholesale as well as having a bigger impact.” That ' s a really key part of the work that we ' re trying to do in this industry.Just briefly, the food issue, “I talked at'the beginning regarding collaborations as well as cooperations and we ' ve partnered with the Reinvestment Fund on a number of food shop, grocery stores, food storehouse warehouse,
using our New Market Tax Credit Scores. But it is a challenging issue. I stay in a moderate, low income neighborhood and also every morning where I ' m going for my coffee, I have children on my block purchasing Doritos and it ' s 6:30, I ' m like, “Guys, you got ta requirement to consume that stuff at 6:30?” I assume it ' s component in the schools also, as well as so, we ' d funded a great deal of charter institutions and a great deal of the charter colleges have nourishment programs in their institutions. “I think education ' s a crucial part” of nutrition as well as health, and also we can finance several of the area based points around that. Among the campaigns that we ' re beginning to work with as well as germinate is around … There ' s a bodega organization being formed in Dudley City, in Jersey City around exactly how we can potentially fund more fresh fruits as well as veggies. There'' s, I didn ' t recognize a hundred bodegas in that area alone, and also so, it ' s an evolution.In regards to calamity recuperation, when we did our Sandy recuperation, FHA did the very first direct sale where they ended up directly selling to us 517 lendings in the most impacted Sandy recuperation areas. It was the very first time ever before direct sale'.
They billed us a premium, yet it was … ' Cause O&B made them bill you. Yeah. Ops administration and budget plan made a costs. But we assumed it was very important adequate to manage the asset or ____ somewhere else. I assume another typical style we ' re speaking about right here is avoiding items and also things, as well as considering systems, ' create the fresh food, what ' s occurred, advancement of how the market works in fresh foods, you ' re thinking around, “Okay, you can ' t simply construct a grocery shop, you need to have a distribution facilities in position that make good sense.” In the past, if you told a person, '” Area growth company as well as non profits ought to aid money a warehouse,” they ' re like, “” Well, that ' s not community advancement.” Yes, if you ' re trying to build systems that change individuals ' s lives, you have to have these connectors, you have to be able to money infrastructure as well.Some of the folks are doing points. I know Detroit they'' re doing it and also a few of the various other ____ Living Cities, they '” re doing the hydroponic farming systems, they ' re assisting individuals utilize deserted stockrooms to expand lettuce and all those kind of points. So, that ' s an additional method the market has developed, thinking of systems versus just assuming about this is housing, this is local business or whatever. We really, I assume, have actually altered, insufficient yet, however I assume we ' re reaching an area where we ' re thinking of the systems that help support communities.Alright. This following one is from Twitter, as well as I love Twitter, so I ' m incredibly excited we got some posts from there. Someone claimed, “Passion is terrific, but exactly how do you evaluate whether neighborhood non revenues truly represent the neighborhood?” And I ' m considering this in the context of how we ' re discussing making certain bodegas, which I likewise really do love, have'accessibility to fresh fruit and vegetables. Just how do you understand that that neighborhood desires to “keep their bodega, but they additionally desire all these other services that obviously cause far better wellness end results as” well.'And additionally thinking of your organization scaling across the country, Roberto, how do you determine these regional companions when your base, essentially, has been San Fernando Valley? Just how do you recognize that someone in Iowa or Massachusetts is truly linked to the areas that they talk about? So, if maybe a couple of of you all could mention a few of the mechanisms and devices you actually make use of to review that authenticity.We entered into Miami. I invested a number of months speaking with the SBA, speaking with practically every non profit I can determine that had a take care of on small company, simply speak to them all. Didn ' t been available in with a predetermined idea in mind, simply speak with them. And also obtained a feeling of what the obstacles were, who was doing the lending, who wasn ' t doing the borrowing, comprehending that there was a wonderful micro lender in the neighborhood, so they didn ' t require me in there to do microlending. That they basically had other SBA and lending institutions, what they really required was that$50,000 to $250,000 loan that a financial institution couldn ' t do, which ' s what we concentrated on. We were asked by a bank to do a capital expo in Las Vegas. Went to Las Vegas, started to meet all the various non profit organizations, and in the middle of one conversation, I had a non revenue that simply stated, “Lookit, we ' re out of cash, we ' re gon na close down, will you acquire us and bring us into your company?” As well as that appeared of an organic conversation in regards to what was going on because neighborhood and also what is needed.The thing is, also, is that … I constantly obtain strange concerning words “stand for.” I would certainly never ever claim that I represented the “San Fernando Valley, a lot less the state of The golden state. I consider myself as a technician. My task is to reply to a need. There ' s a need for capital gain access to, there ' s a need for small company borrowing, I can speak with that demand.
And I can essentially help provide items and also programs that speak with establishing business owners and growing small companies in communities.That ' s, I assume, much more the function for non revenues. I obtain actually terrified when you get non revenue organizations who begin discussing, “I represent this or I stand for that,” ' cause that ' s not the objective of a non earnings company. The goal of a non earnings is to develop change in a certain area of human requirement. That ' s our obligation, that ' s why we were produced. As well as the reality is non revenues, and also I go back to what Dudley said and also reminded me over and also over once more, non revenue is a tax excluded designation. Past that, the organization is developed based upon an objective to serve a certain demand. And also to the level we can do that'and produce impact, which increasingly is coming to be a growing number of vital as well as an increasing number of questionable, then we ' re being effective and afterwards'we ' re really speaking with having actually accomplished our objective. You ought to speak about … Yeah. I went to a meeting with a head of state of a foundation in New york city a while back, as well as she told me that her view was the neighborhood advancement movement was dead as well as required to relocate on.I undoubtedly totally disagree because I still assume neighborhood area development firms function in markets where the private markets don ' t wan na go and also government ' s unable of going. At New Jersey, what we try to do is we take a comprehensive review of exactly how we operate in areas. We wear ' t do great deal of one off stuff, we deal with teams that look to comprehensive … We think of it comprehensive around real estate, around education,
around food, around financial growth. In order to do that, the groups … And also we do have a number of really great programs in New Jacket, the Area Rejuvenation Tax obligation Credit score program, which actually requires the non earnings groups when they obtain resources, to really dig deep around resident engagement. As well as there ' s a great deal of that sort of planning that goes on. As well as those are the most effective end results in regards to area revitalization, when it comes from the residents.and and also the area we do have a lot of that in New Jacket, I ' m simply worried a lot more that the industry itself is damaging, so they ' re not gon na be able to do as much as they can as well as need to be able to do. As well as I think a vital piece of it is extremely basic: Paying attention. The job that Wayne is doing there, when I was still board chair, they would come to me, “Michigan called or North Carolina called or Florida called as well as we wan na enter into that state.” And also my question was constantly, “Who are we gon na companion with?” Since you never wan na be parachuting in from another location to do work where other
people have been for a very long time and also I'assume that ' s one of the reasons the programs have been so effective ' cause we were being available in to partner with people that were on the ground, had better experience, as well as being simple regarding it and understanding, “Look, I put on ' t understand every little thing concerning what ' s taking place right here. I require someone “that does and also that ' s been below, that ' s been involved, that recognize where all the challenges understand and are that the great companions are.” It ' s having the humbleness to ask and also the ability to listen, that I think is truly crucial in getting to that place.Did you have … No, I would certainly concur. As well as having people on the ground in different areas. I have the great fortune of working for an organization that had a visibility in two dozen states and also I ' ve never ever seen a CRA examination didn ' t state that cost effective housing was a critical requirement in that area. They additionally go into various other requirements, as well as those needs might not be that you … Some cities have terrific education and learning systems, as well as others do not. Some have a growing local business setting and also regional economic situation, and others do not.So you actually have to have individuals on the ground as well as have a procedure and a system in area to get the input
, to infiltrate it, to focus on, to straighten it with your institutions, organization goals, your strengths, I assume, and also slim it down, due to the fact that no private organization is gon na be all points to all people, or to all neighborhoods. So taking a look at what are the needs, just how do they align with your organization objectives, your service capacities and also toughness, and also where you can make an effect and where there ' s a requirement where you ' re not strong, do you have the best partnerships as well as links to aid refer those needs to another person? As well as ideally, we can attend to several requirements within a community and also have an overall impact. Great. Wayne and also Lela, you ' ve both talked a little about recruiting the following course of neighborhood designers and also we are a room filled with pupils below, therefore it ' s suitable that a person of our question is, “What top qualities or skills do you look for in a person that you ' re recruiting into this area? As well as what makes them most successful?” It ' s fascinating, we have a great deal of our more youthful generation came from public city preparation or public plan graduate schools.They weren ' t always educated, state, in borrowing'or in realty advancement, however they were certainly devoted to social as well as financial justice problems, which to us is a really crucial starting factor. Having the capability to assume seriously and also analytically, we assume is really important. We believe we can train. We ' re not looking for individuals that necessarily come in with a debt history or a lending background or a real estate advancement history. We ' ve been actually exceptionally privileged to actually … And, once again, having our fellowship program, I believe, additionally has been useful. It ' s extra around what their dedication as well as education and also enthusiasm is about. We ' ll do the training. Yeah, I would concur. I ' ve constantly said that I can show anyone CRA.I can ' t teach individuals if they put on ' t have the desire to be collaborative, to be cutting-edge, to think tactically. Occasionally you can assist people on that particular means, however really you have to have an interest and an interest. And also being a CRA manager provides a distinct insight and an opportunity to collaborate with people, whether they ' re lenders, whether they ' re responsible for financial investment, whether they ' re in the local business area, the housing area. I have associates with legal backgrounds, with service histories, with education and learning backgrounds, a large variety of abilities, but what they have is what Wayne showed, is the wish to take their scholastic abilities and put them to utilize to make a distinction in a community.What I search for in my group was people who had the desire as well as a commitment to stabilize that dual bottomline: The mission and also the organization objectives.
We ' re gon na have to spread those dollars around to less tasks, which is unfortunate however it ' s most likely the only means the market will clear.That ' s the biggest one, in my mind, that ' s gon na take place. We took that $5 million and we utilize that into a, I think, a$35 million fund, I can ' t keep in mind now, it ' s as well long, but I assume that ' s right.And that ' s where we started with that. Since you never ever wan na be parachuting in from an additional location to do work where other
people have actually been for a long time and also I'think that ' s one of the factors the programs have been so successful ' cause we were coming in to companion with people who were on the ground, had better expertise, and also being simple concerning it and also understanding, “Look, I don ' t recognize whatever about what ' s going on below. Wayne as well as Lela, you ' ve both talked a little bit concerning recruiting the following class of neighborhood developers as well as we are a space complete of pupils right here, and so it ' s suitable that one of our inquiry is, “What skills or top qualities do you look for in an individual that you ' re recruiting right into this field? And being a CRA supervisor provides a distinct insight and an opportunity to team up with individuals, whether they ' re lending institutions, whether they ' re accountable for investment, whether they ' re in the small service room, the real estate area.That ' s why I make the joke about all the attorneys'' and also accounting professionals ' youngsters going to Yale and also Harvard, because the system we develop makes those middlemans necessary in order to obtain whatever done.But for reasons that we can all chat concerning at length, we are a country that don ' t like to provide cash straight to poor people. Just to give the details ' trigger individuals aren ' t stupid.If you inform someone it ' s gon na cost them 300%interest price, they ' re not gon na buy in. Where the re default price on home mortgages are usually 20%, 30%, we ' ve had much less than 1%as well as I associate that to the excellent work our counselors do as well as there ' s therapy and also there ' s therapy.
And I didn'' t make 'him state that ' reason I ' ve been saying that every course. That ' s why I make the joke concerning all the attorneys'' and accounting professionals ' youngsters going to Yale and Harvard, because the system we create makes those intermediaries mandatory in order to get every little thing done.But for reasons that we can all talk regarding at length, we are a nation that don ' t like to offer money straight to inadequate individuals. Just to provide the info ' cause individuals aren ' t stupid.If you inform a person it ' s gon na cost them 300%rate of interest price, they ' re not gon na purchase in. Once more, somebody I recognize says the finest neighborhood development program is a well paying job.If you wear ' t have transferable skills, if you wear ' t have the capacity to recuperate from, or receive a short-term interruption in employment or a downsizing, that means you take a much less reduced paying job, it ' s very hard to preserve your mortgage and your real estate payment. Where the re default rate on home mortgages are generally 20%, 30%, we ' ve had less than 1%and I attribute that to the excellent work our therapists do as well as there ' s counseling as well as there ' s counseling.